Is “Post Raw Vegan” Better than Raw Vegan? : Exclusive Renegade Health Interview

Wednesday Mar 9 | BY |
| Comments (82)

Yesterday, we aired Part 1 of an interview with David Rainoshek on the Spectrum of Diet…

In that interview, he spoke about the evolution of his own raw food diet and outlined a very interesting and compelling structure for understanding all types of diet.

Today, we continue our discussion and David explains his dietary changes further, looks at all types of diet (vegan, raw vegan, raw food, whole food and others), and explains how to incorporate them into your life.

Listen to Part 2 here:


Click the play button to start the call:


Here are my notes on Part 2 of the interview with David Rainoshek…

1. What is your worldview?

It’s interesting to hear the breakdown of worldview from David.

Here are the different “levels”:

  • Archaic
  • Magical
  • Egocentric
  • Mythic
  • Scientific
  • Communitarian / Egalitarian
  • Integrative
  • Holistic

Each of these levels, like personality types, comes with the good and the bad.

I, from time to time, find myself in many of them.

Archaic, when I’m really hungry. LOL!

Magical, when I believe that I’m being guided.

Mythic, when I take on a hero’s journey and work to accomplish something of value.

Scientific, when I explore myths in the health world and logically break them apart.

Egalitarian, when I think about the welfare of all beings.

Integrative, when I publish a piece like this.

Holistic, when I talk about all aspects of life being important for your overall health.

Which one are you?

2. Great quote: “The mistake is to look back down to lower levels and say they’re deluded.”

When David explains the levels of spiral dynamics as applied to nutrition, he makes a point to mention that no level is wrong, nor deluded. (You can learn more about Spiral Dynamics by listening to the interview or searching on Google.)

I completely hope you understood that clarification.

In fact, since I’ve spent time (or do spend time) in all of them, I can assure you that some that are lower on the spectrum are actually more comforting to be in than the higher ones.

So for instance, it’s much easier to believe and act within a structure where you know you’ll be guided by God or a spirit than believe that you have all the power to create your reality.

This is the difference between mythic and integral.

It’s also much easier to be egocentric than egalitarian.

Egocentric eating for “me” is easier than conscious eating for “everyone.”

I usually compare this type of organization and good-nor-bad philosophy to the type of jobs we tend to choose – with each type of position, we have varying positives and negatives.

So for instance, I’ve chosen to be my own boss. With that comes good and bad.

Good, is that I can do what I want, I can work when I want, and I can change the direction of where I’m going in minutes.

Bad, is that I have to accept the result of doing what I want (whatever that may be), I may sometimes work 18 hours straight, and if I change directions so quickly, I may leave everyone else in the dark.

If you’re not your own boss, this has good and bad as well.

Good, is that you get a paycheck regularly, feel part of a whole and support your family and lifestyle in a comfortable way.

Bad, is that you generally don’t make your own hours and can lose it all at any time when someone decides they don’t need you any more.

Breaking it down for nutrition, we have the same type of issues.

You can believe that there is a diet for spiritual practice and it has lots of good, but what if it doesn’t serve you completely on the physical plane?

Or you can eat a ton of factory farmed bacon, which probably tastes good and gives you pleasure, but in the long run it will destroy your body.

But who would fault someone for eating because it tastes good?

This is one of our ultimate pleasures. So while eating bacon, which I see as lower on the spectrum, does have a pleasure component to it that is beneficial.

Who also would fault someone for eating in a spiritual way? Eating for enlightenment has been done for 1000’s of years and there has been evidence it does help people and cultures evolve. It’s all powerful stuff and I have a feeling this is why David (and I) are calling for a more integrated approach.

Nothing is all bad, nothing is all good.

(Let me qualify that… industry produced cigarettes, diet soda and any food that is Ecto Cooler blue are bad.)

3. What is post raw vegan?

Post raw vegan is an integral approach to eating.

This part of David’s “Spectrum of Diet” is a point where you take aspects of all the dietary levels and apply them into your philosophy.

It requires strength and introspection to reach this perspective.

It also causes a lot of frustration, self questioning, dogma breaking and fear of what people will say to you and about you.

(Yes, I’ve experienced all those.)

I, like David, believe that being raw vegan for at least a few months or even years is essential for cleansing your body and opening your mind.

Without my raw vegan experience, I would not be able to be who I am today, nor would I be able to share some of my experiences in the way that I can – to help you be better at what you do and how you eat.

Post raw vegan is just a reset or relocation of the center of gravity – which includes much of the lessons learned from the raw vegan lifestyle as well as other dietary experiences – to a point where your body, mind and spirit are completely integrated, but still always hypersensitive to the notion that the integration will never be exact or absolute.

Everything is always in flux or changing.

Post raw vegan is the art of the flow.

4. If you’re looking for a fight, you’ll find it.

When I was younger and used to drink, my friends and I would go to the bar.
If on that particular night we were drinking beer, we’d be fun and happy-go-lucky.

If we were drinking wine (which was rare), we’d get sleepy.

If we were drinking Jack Daniels, we’d get into a fight.

There were times when we’d even know what we were doing when the first shot of Jack was ordered – let’s see what trouble we can stir up tonight, we’d say by purely our actions.

Basically, we were looking for a fight.

And one thing I’ve learned from this is that if you look for a fight, you will find it.

I actually have a chipped tooth to show for it.

So what if you look for a good reason to eat cheese?

I’m sure you’ll find one.

Or what about a reason to drink 5-6 cups of coffee a day?

You’ll find that too (antioxidants.)

How about looking for a study that demonstrates the vegan diet is the only diet for man?

Yep, you’ll find that too.

You also can find a reason to believe that just living on air is the most spiritually evolved practice.

What I’m saying here is that you can find anything you’re looking for.

If you’re aware of this, you’ll understand that this myopic practice, while it works in the short term in many cases, doesn’t serve you so well in the long term.

For instance, there are a lot of benefits of deep breathing or “eating” only pure, clean air, but when you don’t eat or drink for 4-5 days, you could die.

My practice has now transitioned from looking to justify absolutes, to looking for similarities. What do all diets have in common, not what separates them or makes them superior.

I, of course, still believe a high raw, high plant based diet is best – but that’s because almost every expert agrees on this and most cultures in our past have lived on this type of diet as well.

The evidence of this is overwhelming.

(And I guess because I’m looking for it, I found it… LOL!)

5. There’s no such thing as “no impact.”

We can’t completely eliminate our impact on the environment, on the welfare of all creatures or on ourselves.

To think that we can eat without impacting the environment, being involved with death or destruction of life in some way, or not impact ourselves positively or negatively is enticing, but in practice is impossible.

Even Colin Beavan, “No Impact Man,” needed to eventually compromise after his experiment ran into some bumps in the road.

6. Even the vegetable has to die?

I personally dislike this argument when people try to justify the inclusion of animal products.

The death of a vegetable is much lower on the spectrum of life.

If you’re read “The Secret Life of Plants,” you’ll know plants can possibly be sentient beings, but the impact of the death of an animal on the human experience is much more disturbing than the picking of a flower for your wife or harvesting some lettuce.

7. I love Joseph Campbell.

I was first introduced to Joseph Campbell’s work in high school.

When I read “The Power of Myth” then, I was blown away.

In fact, this may be the book I’ve read the most in my life… over 5-6 times.

In the book, Campbell explains the similarities in the mythic stories of cultures across the world.

Even when some cultures never had any experience or contact with each other, they share very similar myths.

It’s almost as if the information is stored in our DNA.

8. Where do we go from here?

After listening to this interview, you don’t really need to go anywhere.

There’s no action that you need to take if you don’t want, nor is there any thing that you need to change.

The only thing I ask is that you listen with an open mind and let this conversation settle a bit.

Maybe one day, you’ll use it or maybe you won’t.

I’ve asked David to be available for a blog post to answer some of your questions if you have any, so please be sure to ask them in the comments section!

I want to know your thoughts: What questions do you have for David?

The Best Way to Grow Highly Mineralized Food (And Cheap Too!)

I know many of you are interested in growing your own food. Many of you probably do it already.

One of the biggest concerns that I have about foods that are even grown organically (or even at home) is that they may not have enough minerals to support us long term.

Minerals are essential for keeping our bodies alkaline, important for all systems to function (particularly our muscular and nervous system), they help us hold water, and they build strong bones.

When your diet is low in minerals you become too acidic and your body starts to break down.

In most parts of the Northern Hemisphere, the growing season has now begun, but hundreds of thousands of people are not growing their food in mineral rich soils for numerous reasons like poor soil quality to begin with, depleted soil or disturbed soil.

By growing your own food, you are doing great for yourself and your family, but there’s a higher and better option as well.

OceanGrown solution is a product that has been scientifically proven to add more minerals to the produce that you grow in your own garden.

I’ve had the opportunity to talk to John Hartman, the owner of the company, and he’s shown me real studies that show vegetables and fruits that have been grown with Ocean Grown solution have more minerals in them.

What is Ocean Grown Solution?

It’s a concentrated seawater solution (completely toxin free) that you can use on your garden, or even with your own house plants to help them thrive.

The product comes in 1 liter or gallon size bottles and lasts an extremely long time, since you only need to use a little and don’t need to apply it all the time.

You can also use Ocean Grown to grow highly mineralized sprouts and wheatgrass. In fact, there are a few companies in Southern Florida who do this and I literally can tell the difference in the taste of the sprouts and wheatgrass juice – highly mineralized foods, do in fact taste better to us.

Anyway, if you’re a grower or a sprouter who’s interested in maximum nutrition (or even if you just want the best for your houseplants), I think you’ll like to experiment with Ocean Grown Solution.

Right now, as a springtime special, we’re offering two special Ocean Grown Solution Specials:

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These specials will last until March 14th (Monday), so be sure to take advantage of them now!

Here’s where you can go to get these deals now: Click here to buy Ocean Grown Solution at a discount!

Live Awesome!

Kevin Gianni

Kevin Gianni is a health author, activist and blogger. He started seriously researching personal and preventative natural health therapies in 2002 when he was struck with the reality that cancer ran deep in his family and if he didn’t change the way he was living — he might go down that same path. Since then, he’s written and edited 6 books on the subject of natural health, diet and fitness. During this time, he’s constantly been humbled by what experts claim they know and what actually is true. This has led him to experiment with many diets and protocols — including vegan, raw food, fasting, medical treatments and more — to find out what is myth and what really works in the real world.

Kevin has also traveled around the world searching for the best protocols, foods, medicines and clinics around and bringing them to the readers of his blog — which is one of the most widely read natural health blogs in the world with hundreds of thousands of visitors a month from over 150 countries around the world.


Comments are closed for this post.

  1. nicola says:

    this guy rocks!!
    love you kevin and ann.

  2. Treeplanter says:


    While I agree with much of what you say, I will point out that there is an error in your stating that most cultures in our past have lived on a high plant based diet.

    Certainly, people eat plants, but it is the meat in their diet that keeps them alive. Every culture in our past used meat and other animal products. There simply aren’t any long-term ancient vegan cultures. Do you know about any?

    Even in lush tropical areas, where people have access to plant foods year round, they still eat meat and fish.

    There is something misleading about using the term “high plant based diet.” Yes, by bulk, the majority of the food in the primitive diet is plants. But the animal products are essential sources of protien, minerals and B-12.

    If you know of any evidence of ancient vegan cultures, I would like to see it. I haven’t heard of any yet.

    Even with the development of agriculture about 10,000 years ago, people continued to eat meat and milk products.

    Please, start using more accurate language. Instead of that misleading plant-based diet phrase, you should use something like, whole food omnivorous diet. A diet in which animal products had an essential role. People can’t live on rice and veggies. They need meat, or they die. It’s as simple as that.

    I know, in our modern era of all kinds of supplements and exotic foods, it is possible to be a vegan and survive, mainly because of B-12 supplements. But obviously, our anccestors did not have B-12 supplements. They had to eat animal products.

    Please remove the vegan bias from your writings. Instead of bashing meat, you should point out the differences between factory farmed meat and healthy, wild meat.

    Have a show about people who keep hens in the back yards for healthy, fresh eggs. Or keeping goats or sheep in the yard to turn grass and weeds into healthy milk.

    And I won’t hold my breath waiting for that evidence of ancient vegan socieites.

    Michael T.

  3. Veronica says:

    Kevin –

    Thank you for posting David’s interview. This interview resonated with me more than any other in the Great Health Debate. What a great way to sum up the main goal of the Great Health Debate. Thanks!!


  4. Joe W. says:

    Kevin & David, I applaud you both for the content of that interview, it was very evolved, intelligent, mature and sane. Much appreciated! We seem to be brainwashed that dying is a negative. I’d like to hear David’s thoughts on how death is viewed within the highest levels of development.

  5. sharon says:

    To Michael T. (above):

    “But obviously, our anccestors did not have B-12 supplements. They had to eat animal products.”

    Luckily, in 2011 we have vitamin B12 supplements, so luckily, I don’t HAVE to eat animals.

    “…you should point out the differences between factory farmed meat and healthy, wild meat.”

    I’m wondering where you get “wild” meat? Most of us are not hunters or have access to wild animal meat.

    “…Or keeping goats or sheep in the yard to turn grass and weeds into healthy milk”

    Goats or sheep cannot turn grass and weeds into healthy milk unless they are pregnant and have kids. What happens to the kids???? How many of those can one keep?

  6. Kathleen Blanc says:

    What a great discussion….thank you, thank you. I love the inclusion of the spiral dynamics as a way to understand the progression of a relationship to food.

    I feel a great sense of lightness and balance as a result of hearing this conversation. I am totally aligned with the perspective of information, inclusion and movement that was presented.

    Sending my deep gratitude,

  7. Josh A says:

    response to Michael T

    Let’s look at what we need NOW for optimal health. Sure, there were things we did back then, but were we doing the best things? We might have been for that time. Who knows.

    B12 – You need to do a little more research into b12. Every single human being should be taking a b12 supplement somewhat regularly. I dont care what your eating. Even if you were eating b12 fortified animal products all day I would still recommend taking a b12 supplement. B12 is a bacteria and before we decided to use chemicals and sanitize everything there was an abundant amount on and around everything.

    We also did not have all these toxic burdens from the environment. We have created so many toxic substances, they are in and around everything. These toxic chemicals need to be handled by eating an abundance of plants, and the antioxidants in plants help to recycle other antioxidants in the body. So, yes, plant based is what people should be eating to be optimally healthy.

    No matter how natural an animal is raised it will still contain a lot more toxic chemicals from the environment, they consume lots of dirt where these toxic substances fall and then accumulate in the tissues of these animals. Then you eat these substances.

    Obviously pasture raised meat is WAY better than conventional raised cows (actually I would not even count conventional raised animal products as foods, the meat should be called something else since it is totally nutritionally different from natural meats). Thats why it should be plant based, because it will be safer with either choice (organic and conventional) of animal products, you will lower your burden of toxins that the animals accumulate.

    I have happy chickens running around my house eating mostly grass for nutrition. They supply me and my friends with eggs. So, no, Im not vegan.

    let me know what your thoughts are on this post.


  8. Sparkie says:

    Looks like James Franco, but maybe more healthy…

  9. WholeFoodOmnivore says:

    to Sharon (above)

    “Goats or sheep cannot turn grass and weeds into healthy milk unless they are pregnant and have kids. What happens to the kids????”

    That’s your ongoing source of grass-fed kebobs (yummmmmm!)

  10. Chris says:

    Sorry, I cannot listen to this. Clearly David has a huge ego. . he knows all the answers – – good for him.

    Before I learned how to walk, I crawled on all fours. I don’t feel the need to go back to that either.. nor will I go back to eating animals. Been there, done that.. don’t need to do it anymore..

    I’ll follow the likes of Brian Clement who doesn’t vascillate . .

    Too bad. You had a good thing .. once upon a time.

  11. To answer the question post raw vegan better than vegan? I am not sure I think it is. I could not listen to David, for some reason I was turned off by his way of speaking and presenting information. =(

  12. Rebecca Cody says:

    David very intellectually expressed what my body has been telling me. I went raw vegan as a means of helping heal cancer, but eventually my protein levels fell below the healthy range. Incorporating well raised eggs and occasionally fish, chicken or even beef into my diet is helping my fingernails to grow again.

    I still see raw veganism as the framework of my diet, and adding a bit of animal protein is what helps make it more complete.

    A few months ago I read a book written by a woman whose parents were anthropologists studying one of the last hunter gatherer groups on the African Kalahari. The women gathered the food that sustained them day to day, but, on those occasions when the men successfully hunted meat, they celebrated and feasted late into the night. These were healthy people, living in one of Earth’s most challenging environments. It seems there is a valuable lesson here.

  13. sharon says:

    I’ve heard all those defensive arguments before to promote eating animals (that something must die for others to live). Those arguments come from Rational-Level thinking (and below). So, don’t try and elevate it by calling it Integral Level thinking. I know that death occurs from eating plants, but I choose to make it unintentional (and from the plant and insect kingdoms). To intentionally cause suffering and death to non-human animals will probably never be my choice.

    OK. So what about choosing to eat animals for ones own better health?
    That seems to be Egocentric Level thinking.

    I guess at Integral Level we are suppose to access and incorporate lower level thinking, but what if it is directly opposed to the level above it? Like, what happens to the “compassion” part of Pluralistic when you incorporate Mythic as well, for instance?

  14. Pat says:

    It is interesting that so many people think we always ate meat. Before tools & weapons, I can just see us running after those cows and strangling them with our bare hands. Certainly we couldn’t catch a rabbit or a bird. We might have raided nests for eggs. At one point a very hungry human probably came upon what was left of a carcass and helped himself. From there on I can see us developing as omnivores and trying to figure out how to catch & kill animals. Certainly before that we were very plant based. And as far as B12, we definitely got it from dirt.

    Since the lack of B12 is such an issue for vegan vs meat, I would just like to point out that calcium is a very essential nutrient that meat eaters must supplement if they don’t want osteoporosis, broken hips etc. Yes they get it in their diet but not enough. Because meat is acidic, calcium is drawn from the bones to buffer this and return the blood to a normal alkaline state. Plant based individuals don’t have this problem and so don’t have to supplement calcium as they get enough in their diet. Guess all diets are lacking in something that must be supplemented.

  15. StarLight says:

    Thank You for hosting this talk! I find David’s approach very organic in nature, his viewpoints EVOLVED from his own research and living through various stages of being sick, healing, moving to a new locale, and further growing.

    I went through a 2 year fasting/cleansing mode almost 20 years back and majorly changed my system, my outlooks, my health, and my spiritual unfolding. I continued to juice and eat salad as my main diet, was a vegetarian for 15 years prior to this, and continued for several years after this. There came a point where I needed more substantial heavier foods to be balanced. It was a confusing time, for I so believed what I was doing was the best, the right thing, etc. I had to let go of some of this to find a new balance.

    I still eat ALOT of raw, am mostly vegetarian, juice daily, garden and put up food yearly, and go low on starch and treat foods. I realize when I need some supplementation.

    It was completely refreshing to hear about the various levels of consciousness that go along with different food intakes, agree with them from my own experience, and hear affirmation for all of the levels that are chosen. This is not a war! People have reasons for their choices.

    Though there is so much info available online these days, I think it’s sad that more mainstream folks do not listen to enough of these talks, or hear the warnings in time to save themselves from drastic illnesses, but that’s what it takes sometimes for people to wake up and find nature again for true healing, and then for longevity maintenance.

    I appreciate our pioneers and current educators, especially those who make videos and articles available to freely disseminate, to help everyone who so desires, to find a comfortable way on their paths to wholeness!

    Blessings, StarLight

  16. CY says:

    Wanting to go back to eat meat again may be David’s personal way of taking care of his own health concern, being cold in winter in northern areas. But obviously he hasn’t explored enough to learn about ways to take care of this issue. There should be other ways to generate heat in his body that hasn’t been discovered by him yet. If he chose to eat meat again, that’s the choice for himself only. That doesn’t mean all vegans will take that route to fall back into killing. The word “integrated” may be overly and incorrectly used here. The truly highly evolved stage that we are heading toward is no killing, and ultimately no eating even.

    Although there is killing involved even on a raw vegan diet, the killing of microorganisms is different from killing a cow since their consciousness levels are different. Being vegans may have to kill much lower conscious level beings. But plants actually expect us to spread the seeds for them. (Although the best way is to eat the fruits and vegetables that have already fallen on the ground but not picking from the plants directly.) But animals have much higher consciousness than plants and they don’t want to die just like human beings. Perhaps this is the point that he hasn’t got yet – there is a big difference in conscious levels in all beings on this planet that in order to sustain our physical bodies, we vegans choose to eat the ones with the lowest consciousness. It just sounds like he was trying to rationalize his moving back to eat meat perhaps to ease his inner knowing that he might have done something wrong. If he were truly sensitive as he said he was, he would not have been able to put that piece of meat into his mouth chewing with a peace of mind as he should have been able to sense the pain, sorrow, and fear from it. Then, he even tried to convince others that he was doing the right thing and persuade other vegans to join him considering to eat some meat be get into this more integrated development stage. He doesn’t need to worry about the post-vegan stage for mankind, and perhaps need to focus on why he can’t sustain veganism himself. The post-vegan stage is actually fruitarian, waterian and breatherian.

    The fully “integrated” stage is that all beings can live happily together when human beings play the role of protecting the environment and allowing other species to evolve naturally without interference by playing God to decide how they should live. Human beings’ survival does not rely on animals, but on intelligence and spirituality.

    In a highly developed stage of existence, it’s not possible for a human being to want to go back to eat animals in order to “survive”. But it’s possible that when a person became a vegan without a highly developed consciousness, he may later go back to eat meat again because he was not there yet spiritually. Although he had the deed of being a vegan, he didn’t have enough spiritual development to sustain it. He may need to look into why he even became a vegan at the first place. Even if today, a vegan feels cold, that still is not a good excuse to kill, even indirectly, just so that he can feel warm in winter, function well, and have sex drive. He might not have eaten a well balanced vegan diet and there are books and all kinds of information out there that human beings, as the highest species and most intelligent being on this planet, are fully capable of doing research to find solutions, instead of killing those helpless, innocent, and less intelligent animals to eat them as food as the easy solution. A highly evolved soul would give up anything to not kill. Not to mention that in higher realms, there is no gender difference. Let alone having sex drive that only exists in lower realms when duality exists, such as the planet Earth.

    I disagree that human beings must kill to live. At the most, it only shows that a vegan was so unsure about his original intent to become a vegan to later doubt about his belief, if there is one, to decide to go back to his old way, killing, and then tried to rationalize it. and to get more to join to make him believe he is doing the right thing.

    We develop into more highly evolved and conscious beings that do not and can not kill the lives that God created, unless he wants to identify himself as a predator to have to kill and eat animals’ flesh to survive. But just don’t speak for other vegans, or tell them what stage they should develop into. Human beings were created by God to repent their faults to have got involved in and abused animals. It’s too long a story to tell right now. Perhaps reading the book called “Experiment Earth: Journey Back to the Beginning” by Kevin Ross Emery will help enlightening to some extent.

  17. Kosotie says:

    Thank you for interesting talk. This is pretty much what I have been thinking for many years but not found any way to develop it into a sound way of expressing.
    I am a raw vegan since many years and live in a northern country, so far the cold has not bothered me that much, but, I still wonder what kind of nutrient you get more of in an animal product that could benefit ones health, or if it’s only the amount of nutrient that you get more of if you eat animal products?
    As for supplements, I have never seen one word of info where actually any kind of supplement comes from or how it’s produced, that is actually a very interesting question?

    Much love to you all and keep up the great work you are doing, Kevin, Ann, David and the rest of you!

  18. Angela says:

    This has been a really interesting dialogue. I love hearing and reading all these different points of view. Whether you agree or not it makes you think and encourages discussion. Thank you Kevin and David.

  19. Carrie says:

    I used to LOVE a lot of what David said and represented, and I have not problems with him changing his diet, but I really was surprised how much I didn’t like this interview.

    Yes, there were valid points that some vegans are dogmatic and close-minded…yes, I agree that includes a good fraction of the vegan community.

    However, most of this interview came across as rationalization of becoming “post raw vegan”. And I mean a “spiritual rationalization”, because David went on and on and on about spiritual and how eating animals is part of the spiritual cosmic web and hierarchy of life.

    And yet at the end of this interview–good grief, 2 hours of it!–in those two hours of talking, there was virtually no *concrete* nutritional arguments to support David’s claim. The one sentence he uttered on it was something along the lines of “you need B12, growth hormones, and other nutrients….” Kevin even had to prompt David to share his story about how he was too cold eating raw vegan and that that was the problem.

    Ok, I will say that David’s story was helpful to hear, but I kept getting the feeling that he was holding something back. Because the story started out like “I went back to being an omnivore because I was too cold….but then once I went back, my sex drive improved to where it should have been.” So that means that David had problems with his sex drive? Were there other problems? I felt like David was dancing around some of what really happened by hinting at things indirectly. Maybe not, but that was the impression I got…

    Ok, the parts about this interview that really got to me:

    * The cherry-picking of vegan examples in a way to disparage the vegan community, for example, the focus on “vegan dogma” and vegans who are close-minded. I think that’s horrible and disrespectful. And for the record, it’s just as horrible and disrespectful when people like Durianrider do it, by cherry-picking omnivore examples. And in fact, Harley is even worse! Still, I hate it when people stoop to this level, and I felt like David was doing this.

    * I liked that David said that it was important to learn something from all levels of the spectrum and be respectful of all levels, but then I disliked that later in the interview, he went back on this and insinuated that vegans are narrow-minded, obsessed with avoiding death, and don’t realize that they are killing plants. He seemed obvilious to the diversity within the community.

    * The thing that really crawled under my skin was when he said that raw vegans create problems with their industrial pollution generated by not eating local…that a banana shipped from around the world is more damaging environmentally than a locally raised cow. Are you KIDDING ME?!?!? Ok, David must not have done any research here, but transportation, on average, only accounts for around 10% of the total energetic input (i.e., environmental impact) of agriculture. Moreover, animal foods require FAR more input of both petroleum AND water on a PER CALORIE BASIS than plant foods. In other words, a banana shipped from around the world is still FARRRRRRRRR less damaging to the environment than locally raised grass fed meat. Then add to the fact that cooking food requires more petroleum than eating food raw. And you know food produces the most calories per acre? It’s actually fruit from fruit trees. In fact, when we were studying the energetics or agriculture at my school (an Ivy league school), my professor ended the discussion by concluding, so we should all be raw vegans, as that minimizing the impact of the environmental footprint more than any other dietary choice. Which I know he meant as a joke, as he thinks that would be ridiculous (he knows Richard Wrangham, the famous professor who is anti-raw and thinks cooking gave us large brains). So I know when he said that, he really meant that more plant foods (regardless of where they are shipped from) and less cooking are the best paths from a purely environmental perspective.

    * Ok, then after that completely unresearched self-justification that raw vegans consume more petroleum, which is scientifically false if you look at the scientific literature on the energetics of animal agriculture. the whole hypocritical part is that you know another huge contributor to environmental impact? Building energy. That’s right, heating and cooling buildings. And it accounts for like 40% of our total energy consumption–a bigger negative impact than transportation. So if you’re poo-ing people for engaging in transportation-heavy things, then don’t live in Canada, as the toll on the environment is way worse from heating your house and is typically worse than the shipping of goods. I can’t believe David’s myopism here. How about some real scientific statistics or articles to back up some claims here, rather than some unresearched, unsupported self-justification.

    * Then finally, there was virtually NO nutritional advice in this interview–besides the fact that David thinks vegetarianism is unhealthly. And by the way, the scientific literature supports the fact that vegetarian diets are healthy when done correctly, and that is the American Dietetic Association’s official position. So now, David is abandoning science, too??

    Kevin, I’d like you to ask David to not be wishy-washy and give unsupported statements. Would you pleaze ask him what nutrients are missing from a vegetarian diet and to back that up with evidence? And how about some specifics?

  20. Belle says:

    In my early 20s, I was the original “McDonald’s Queen”. It was absolutely my favourite food. Then I started reading about nutrition, and embarked on a all-raw food regime for about 3 months. Felt fantastic, and haven’t had the urge for ‘junk food’ ever since. I’m now in my early 50s, and whilst I don’t eat ‘all-raw’ anymore, it’s certainly a major part of my lifestyle. I doubt there’s ONE diet that’s going to suit every single person on the planet. We may all be the same, but we’re all different, too. Do what works for you, what you feel comfortable with and about, and keeps you in good health and spirits. When thoughts, words and actions are all in alignment, we have ‘happiness’.

  21. R.O.B. says:

    This is just what I needed to hear. At times I balked a little but then came to understand, quickly. I am impressed with (for the most part) everyone’s supportive comments!

    @Chris…do you see a little of yourself in his description of thinking all other perspectives are bad? I walked on all fours and do now again, sparsely, in yoga. Does Brian Clement seem joyful to you?

    Thanks, Kevin, for brining this to us!

  22. Carrie says:

    P.S. At least the other speakers–both omnivores and vegans–were more specific, talked concretely about what nurtitional factors are important, and at least try to back up their claims with some sort of science or nutritional knowledge….

  23. Amanda says:

    This was such a great interview to listen to. Thank you for posting this. David provided us with so many interesting and important things to think about. However, when he uses some religions and cultures as examples to emphasize his points he ignores other examples that would argue otherwise to what he is trying to describe. Also, he states everything so matter of factly as if he has everything figured out in a way that no one else does yet. Maybe this is true and people involved in progressive movements twenty years from now will see this as the beginning of the next step in our journey, or maybe not. I guess we will see. Also, everyone’s life circumstances, accessibility to different foods or foods found in their environment, etc will make a difference on how they use and interpret each stage of human progression (not to mention genetics). David obviously knows a lot of stuff and he had a lot of interesting things to say. Thank you again for posting this interview.

    P.S. I just wanted to point out that his argument about the amount of killing involved in common raw vegan diets could also be applied to regular meat eating diets. Eating local and organic is important no matter what you are eating whether it is plants or meat.

  24. Barry Smith says:

    David’s hit most of the bases.The great health debate was a totally integral event.I was wondering if you would ever come across Wilber.Yikes.Are things accellerating!
    *I think David summed it up w/ “there are too many factors to precsribe 1 diet 4 all”…it’s time to evolve again.

  25. Amanda says:

    I had made my previous post before the interview was done (it had about another 15 min left) and now that I have finished I just wanted to mention one more thing (it is actually a question):

    Is David making a generalization of some things based on his move to Canada because his physiology was developed for some place else? Would he have experienced a different journey in his diet if he had always lived in Canada?

    I live in Canada in a place much colder than BC ever is (which is where he is talking about when he says “Canada”). I lived the first part of my childhood in a place a little warmer than here and then moved here in my adolescence but find that my experiences are a lot different than what David is saying. However, I do love that David describes everything as a journey and that decisions can change due to new information, changed environment, etc.

  26. Deb says:

    O Kevin! I listened to these 2 episodes with the BIGGEST smile on my face. O bravo to you and David! Precious Annmarie … look after Kevin, because this is just the beginning, all else has been preparation on your website concerning health and diet – you’ve broken the debate open now to BEGINNING a much wider, deeper, higher, fuller, dimensional, interconnected discussion, and an eloquently, philosophically, revelatory “super-nutrient-dense” start too!

    However … from those looking for certainty rather than an ongoing, progressive new-old wisdom to make sense and negotiate the ever-evolving adventure of life at any given state or stage … well … the discussion will get heated and ugly. Don’t let that inhibit the expanding edge of this discussion will you Kevin. This is GOOD.

  27. Matt from FL says:

    This is the best post yet! Really puts things in perspective. Thanks for the great information, Kevin!

  28. ann says:

    “very interesting”, first let me say Kevin I love your site!!! I have been a vegetarian for most of my life. I read “The Provoker Press” John H. Tobe back in the 70s and Ann Wigmore’s books. I was a Macrobiotic cook for a while. But, I got very sick with lymes disease and had massive antibiotics, after I developed leaking gut and many food alergies. I could not eat any grains, nuts so it was impossible for me to get enough protein. I have eaten meat (which was very difficult for me) for the past three years. I am so relieved to say that I am now mostly raw, occassional salmon, and some cooked tempeh. I am a green smoothie fan, with lots of sprouts and greens. I just bought an automatic sprouter I would like to be more self sufficent. I live on a farm and grow most of my own vegetables during the summer. I enjoyed Davids talk he has vast knowledge and an excellent way of presenting it. My only question would be, if David did not move to a cold climate does he think he would have felt the need to change his diet? Keep up the great work Kevin!!!

  29. Stefan Lamour says:

    The intellectual framework here is a bit bizarre and simplistic, seeing some evolutionary trajectory from so-called archaic peoples to the integralists as the peak of humanity. A little knowledge is always dangerous, assimilating archaic peoples presumably like the Vedic peoples to the homeless, and the “magical” type to the ideas around eating “Lucky Charms” makes no sense and are even absurd. The Semitic monotheists are the least mythical of the historical types, hence their literalist dogmatism. The conclusion he reaches requires no such artificial and conjectural mental construction a la Ken Wilber and Spiral Dynamics, but I suppose it gives rationalization to people formerly entrenched in dietary dogmatism. It is intellectually dishonest to look down from your integralist peak and consider the experience of your imaginary “archaic” homeless people to be “valuable”. One needs only to listen to the wisdom of the body: it is clearly omnivorous–the intestines of herbivores are over twice as long as humans and they have 2-4 stomachs. They have over 50,000 more enzymes to break down and synthesize elements from vegetable matter. Humans are the most universal and adaptive of mammals and can survive in the widest range of territory on earth, from the arctic to the desert. Clearly no veganism is possible in those extremes. The universalism of the human body means it is designed to thrive in a wide variety of earth conditions and that is one of its glories which cannot be explained by the pseudo-evolutionism of the Wilberian or the neo-Darwinian types.

  30. Stepheny says:

    WOW, can I really do that??? I’ve been vegetarian since I was 13 years old and I’m now 42. The integral framework makes sense to me. It has ever since I first learned about it a few years ago. I loved David’s Spectrum of Diet and really thought about it a lot last year. I am so glad to hear his journey and where he is today. I don’t know if I can incorporate food products again. However, I learned 3 years ago that I have celiac disease and I really feel the limited options. I’m taking permaculture classes to learn how to create edible forests in my own suburban yard. I am making changes but for me the most important thing is to move forward into evolution, not back. So I could never move back into the way I ate as a child nor would I want to go back to the way I ate as a teenage junk food vegetarian. But I can move forward. Keeping in mind the physical and spiritual nutriton this body needs. If one day that includes meat (I can’t imagine that it ever would for me but who knows.) then I hope I have the courage to move into that next space.

    THANK YOU Kevin for doing this. Ultimately this has more potential to change the way we see food then anything I’ve seen anyone do in the raw/vegan world. YOU TOTALLY ROCK!!!

  31. margot says:

    I am blown away by david’s talk. So, so interesting and so much to reflect on. I will listen to the tape many times. Thankyou for it. I also wish you, Kevin, would make more of a distinction between conventional CAFO animal products, and grass-fed. But i really like the direction you are going with all this. MANY MANY THANKS TO YOU AND ANNMARIE.

  32. Samanthaa says:

    BBRIILLIIAANNTT!!!!! I didn’t think the
    “Great Health Debate” could be surpassed (it was EPIC!). But, this discussion was beeyyyoonddddd……

    for sharing this truly
    inspiring work and for
    always keeping things so
    fresh and dynamic!!;)

  33. Gwen says:

    Am too tired tonight to respond except I could ditto Sharon’s comments above.

    I just don’t get the substance behind some of his arguements. A lot of rationality, a lot of contradictions.

    I’m with Gabriel Cousens, Brian Clement and others who have been living the raw, plant-based diet for many years and walk a talk that rings true for me.

    For all the brain capacity we are supposed to have, we are destroying this beautiful planet with the 2% or less , we have so far been able to access.

    Victoria Boutenko has a lot to offer regarding
    the cold and working with that. She offers a lot of wisdom.

    I got a lot of head stuff from this discourse…I didn’t get any depth of compassion or spirituality from David’s words…I may be wrong but I didn’t.

    I think it’s hard for human beings to admit it when they forsake their integrity and give up instead of continuing on breaking through to higher and higher ground. Instead we rationalize away that intergrity. That’s what I heard in this discourse coupled with a great need to be “right”.

    Thanks for giving me/us this perspective Kevin as a point of reference. I appreciate your work, commitment and courage and especially tenacity.

  34. Betoman says:

    Who else thought of a slinky when you first heard “Spiral Dynamics?” Good stuff! We all need to keep growing and evolving at multiple levels, individually and collectively. Thanks for sharing this.

  35. B~ says:

    Sorry it’s just not that complicated.
    No matter how fancy you make this speech, and whatever your reasons were for being vegan or the many people you believe to understand, for me it’s simply I’m not killing an animal and I’m not paying someone for the sole purpose of killing an animal or it’s family members and until that changes in this world every consumer item we buy contributes to killing more likely than not.

    Do what you want to do, eat what you want to eat, but no reason is good enough to spread this message. All this talk about nature coming from a guy who lives in an area that is too cold for humans without artificial means and this is what spawned these thoughts to dissect in some amateurish fashion the vegan/vegetarian psyche and turn people into arm chair psychologists. Thanks but no thanks.

    The sadness you feel from the last 100-150 yrs is more about our ability to live on this planet than what has happened to the factory farmed animals and so called “humanely” raised animals? Is this always about me me me? I don’t think he even begins to understand how to honor these animals because he barely speaks about what do they get out of it for a fraction of a moment!

    The whole talk I was waiting for the time when he says he had his thyroid checked and consulted with Dr. Gabriel Cousens and how they came to this conclusion through medicine. I’m really disappointed that didn’t come into play here and yet you throw that title around of having a masters from Tree of Life. That’s just bogus. Again, I’m not moved in any way by much of anything meat eaters have to say.

  36. Space Walk Traveller says:

    After the first 5 minutes of listening to David I wanted to turn him off. After 30 minutes I was falling asleep. It went from the great health debate to the great verbal dribble debate. I found him extremely patronizing with his use of words especially saying “look this word up.” David is a young man trying to preach his so called new wisdom, which is nothing new but just common sense. Out of all the speakers on the health debate he was the most painful to listen to. I can see why he was knocking on Kevin’s door asking for an interview and not the other way around. I had to laugh about being cold while eating raw food in the middle of winter in Canada. Most people crave hot food in a cold climates. It’s just called common sense. I almost fell off my chair laughing that his wife got some information written by David Vitalis on eating meat. David is another lost clown who preaches his delusional rubbish to anyone who is silly enough to listen to him.
    After two hours of painful listening to David, he finally comes to the great spiritual wisdom of everyone is different, diet depends on where you are in life, your environment, finances, knowledge, morals etc. Gee I really feel like I learned something NOT while listening to David.

  37. Yogi Suzi says:

    During The Great Health Debate I swung like a pendulum, back and forth, holding tightly to my raw vegan views but my innate wisdom was knowing I needed animal foods. I transcribed Will Tuttle and Robert Young’s interviews and so wanted to give it one more whirl, after 22 years of veganism and 11 years of that mostly raw and still vegan.
    But I live in the mountains in Northern California. If UPS stops running, I stop eating except for the little bit of wild foods that grow around here, and, yes, the deer.

    I do not know how to hunt and it is not hunting season so I found a local rancher who had purely grass fed beef for sale.

    It has been 8 days since I started eating the beef. I have eaten 2 oz. daily lightly cooked in with beans or sprouted lentils, hearty greens, onion, and herbs or spices.

    The non-heme iron sources (beans/greens)when eaten with the heme iron sources is, from any website on iron, the way to get the most absorption of iron.

    I became vegetarian 31 years ago at age 16. That is 31 years of menstruating with a low iron diet.

    But really….beyond that….my nutritional type or metabolic type is one that requires high protein. Being a raw vegan and needing high protein was a challenge. Spirulina, hemp protein, rice protein, none of it really worked.

    I loved what Will Tuttle teaches. He won my heart. But so did Daniel Vitalis. Donna Gates is an absolute sweetheart and she started adding animal foods in because she felt weak.

    I was tired of feeling weak. I have a life to live and lazing around like a vegetable was no longer working for me.

    At this point, I am attracting more friends and open minded thinkers into my life so that we can continue to evolve, together, into what I think David Rainosheck nailed: Integral Eating.

    Since I started eating 2 oz. red meat daily all the rest of my food is still raw. I am also having a little raw milk kefir for brunch yet the salads, sprouts, sunflower greens, avocados, pumpkin seeds, all these old favorites still fill my day. But now a new energy and level of inspiration and confidence fill my day too.

    Thank you so much David Rainosheck!

    You too Daniel Vitalis and Kevin Gianni!

    and everyone, Thank you!!!!!

  38. Britt says:

    I enjoyed listening to David, but I’m annoyed at some of the vicious sounding comments that have been posted. If you don’t want to eat meat, and you are feeling fine without it, then by all means don’t eat it! David isn’t telling you that you have to. It sounds to me like integrating all the levels doesn’t necessarily mean that you need to actually practice all of them.

    for David: I’m curious as to how many calories you were consuming before you decided to add back in more calorie dense foods such as meat. I’m also curious if your calorie count has gone up or if your macronutrient ratio has changed significantly. And just in case you are wondering, I’m not going to preach to you about macronutrient ratio changes, it isn’t a loaded question. 🙂

  39. B~ says:

    Space Walk Traveler ~ my sentiments exactly.

    Sorry to post twice, but will not be subscribing anymore to Renegade Health.

    I’m not going to subscribe or listen to people try to scare me into eating meat. I would rather live a short healthy life in love and pure joy with the animals than obsess about my diet to the point that I have to find ways to breed or kill animals to sustain my existence. I’d rather spend my time on this earth sharing love. 🙂

    My priorities are much different than this health debate. My mental and emotional health is worth so much more to me than that.

  40. Pam says:

    Sounds like a lecture from an academic. Take what works for you and leave the rest.

    As always thank you Kevin and Ann Marie for all you do to promote good health!

  41. james says:

    Thanks Kevin for bringing David on. Though not in full agreement with everything said,
    it does help keep me OPEN minded. Finding those things that work for me now , I realize , may change as I grow and age.

  42. Carrie says:

    Why were my comments not posted? Just because I didn’t like the talk? That’s not fair. I was simply expressing my opinion, and it took me a long time to type that out. I was totally respectful and simply point that the things David said about transportation’s environmental impact were wrong…I’d be happy to provide references. I’m disappointed about this situation 🙁 Please send me an email with an explanation before you delete my post that I took so long to write….

  43. Carrie says:

    Wait…that’s odd, now my post reapearred as still awaiting moderation…hmm…well, in that case, please ignore and delete my last post…And please accept my VERY sincere apologies. I’m so sorry about that!

  44. Teddy says:

    In response to Josh and Michael T.
    Josh is right about meat – bad stuff teaming with bacteria even if you shoot it on the spot. One needs to understand diet is a process of refinement and people eat food accordingly. Mainstream literature like college text, etc. will mislead you because the books have been intentionally changed by those who control the publishing, own the media, entertainment, movie and banking industry including our currency. Do a “You Tube” search for Norman Dodd on Tax Exempt Foundations by Griffin for verification on that. The way of health taught by all great men of history especially since Hipprocrates is a low protein, high alkaline plant based diet. A renowned heart surgeon, Dr, Michael Clapper also on You Tube said quite the contrary about eating meat. He said it is real simple to get any and all disease; simply eat a lot of meat and dairy. He is and was a vegan since early 1980s when I first heard him speak in Los Angeles. The bogus B12 premise doesn’t hold water. Vitamin and mineral supplements are to be avoided if you value your long term health. Read Cashmir Funk who invented vitamins and coined the word. He said you are better off with the deficiency than the side effect from the isolated fraction of the complex that occurs in nature and the ground rocks sold as minerals which clog and make us stiff in old age. Real studies reveal a tolerance in 6 to 18 months taking these supplements. We do not get a tolerance to food and nutrition. Pyridoxine hydrochloride (B6) does not even occur in nature, but natural B6 does. The great unbeatable civilization, the Spartans, contrary to what Hollywood erroneously depicted them chewing on a bird leg, were strict vegetarians. That’s why they were unbeatable because their blood was life sustaining alkaline and not acid from meat. When you are acid you either ache, are tired, sick or dead. We are alkaline creatures. The body cannot store excess protein. The kidneys have to deal with it and thus you see bags under the eyes which reflect kidney burden and toxicity. The true race of the Amazons before they were perverted were a race of virgins who were also strict vegetarians. Even the freshest wild meat is teaming with bacteria and has little nutrition, which is why the carnivores always devour the organs first. Sure the Eskimos eat meat but not to stay warm. They have no choice in the barren ice land were no plants grow. Being carnivores they don’t live a long life. The comparative anatomies of carnivores, fruit eaters, herb eaters and omnivores from the teeth to the anus shows man is in no way a carnivore.
    Eat enough meat you die; Fruit and vegetables heal all. The life force and nutrition is in plants not in dead decaying flesh. You will not find any adept, true guru, advanced soul with highly developed 6th and 7th sense who eats animal meat in spite of what conventional mainstream publications state.

  45. Treeplanter says:

    Intersting discussion. Thanks to the people who responded to my post.

    The first meat that early humans ate was most likely insects. Scientists have already observed primates sticking twigs into termite mounds and eating them. Insects are easy to catch and are very nutritious. As to the taste, well, some people say they are a delicacy.

    No, I don’t personally eat bugs. I would rather eat the eggs of the chickens, and the chickens eat the bugs. But if I were hungry enough, I would eat bugs. And if the economy totally collapses and there is no food in the stores, well, we may all end up eating bugs.

    Regarding B-12, it is much more easily absorbed through the mouth, under the tongue, than it is through the stomach. Another reason to thoroughly chew your food, especially animal foods. Early humans would chew on the bones left by other animal’s kills. Breaking the bones and chewing on the marrow. Lots of minerals and B-12 there. Bone marrow was the first supplement.

    I see nothing wrong with killing animals. Animals kill other animals all the time. If it’s not wrong for the lion or the wolf to kill animals, then why is it wrong for humans to kill animals?

    If there were no predatory animals, then the whole world would be overrun with over-populations of animals, who would eventually starve to death. What is needed is a balance between predator and prey animals. Humans can be part of that balance.

    We need to be careful, of course, to not take all the fish, or all of anything. The key word is balance.

    As to where to get wild meat, well, I buy wild Alaskan salmon at Costco. I also buy some local fish. I can sometimes get local pig meat. I live in Hawaii, and there are many wild pigs here, which can be a problem for farmers, as the pigs dig up the plants. It is a good lesson in balance, we need to kill some of the pigs or else they dig up everything the farmers are trying to grow.

    If wild meat is not available, then grass fed is fine. Just be sure to thank the animal for eating all that grass and concentrating the nutrients. Always eat with gratitude toward whatever it is that you’re eating.

    And I know people who produce the best raw milk I’ve ever had. They can’t legally sell it (but that’s another story), so they barter for things.

    They key issue on food, in my opinion, is balance. Yes, we need plant foods, ideally balanced with animal foods.

    As several people mentioned on this blog, eating only plants can weaken the body over time. People get tired, low energy, lack of drive. That is being too yin, out of balance from a diet of all plants.

    Of course, too much meat would also throw the body out of balance, too much stimulation, too much toxic build-up.

    Let’s have balance in our meals and in our lives. Put a hard-boiled free range egg or some chicken in your salad. Have some raw yogurt with your fruit. It won’t kill you. And you just might live longer and healthier.

    Michael T.

  46. Dave says:

    Kevin won’t be happy until there are no vegans left..

  47. Yasmine says:

    In response to #2:

    I think it is harder to choose to yield to a God you do not see, then to yourself, that you see. When one obeys God, they do not do it out of legalism but out of love. It is harder to turn the other cheek and love your neighbor, then to be selfish and only think about yourself.

    We are not muppets in the hands of God, or else, Eve would never have eaten the forbidden fruit because God would have stopped her right there.

    We choose to yield to God.

  48. Dave says:

    Obey God out of love? I would say fear

  49. wendy green says:

    lot’s and lot’s of info here…will have to listen to this a few times. but on first “view”…i like it and agree on many fronts. thanks kev…love to ann. <3

  50. Dan Hegerich says:

    Hi Kevin,

    My question is more of an inquire about your consideration for an interview on the Health Renegade Show? The reason is to be of service to humanity sharing the earned wisdom through my experiences with terminal cancer six times in a six year period. After receiving six years of chemo, bone marrow transplants, radiation, psychiatric treatments, etc…I left the medical model and resolved my cancer in 5 months. Now I continue to mop up the mess from medicine and on course for regeneration with the desire to inspire and inform.

    Dan Hegerich
    Do The C.U.R.E.

  51. Buddy Humphries says:

    Kevin, this interview and the Debate has focused attention of some areas that need to be addressed such which is worse local eggs vs fruit shipped from South America. I myself am guilty of the any fruit in any season deal. I also accept that we (as a vegan community) need to be less cultist and judgmental of others decisions.

    Having said that I believe that with all the available knowledge about nutrient, the deficiency concern on the part of some can be addressed. I subscribe to the idea so finely articulated by Will Tuttle’s that much of the scope of aggression (domestic violence to mass genocide) can be laid at the feet of a view that we have more of a right to life than others. Interesting, most people feel that way until due to circumstances they or those they cherish become one of the “others”.

    All these centruies of animal products may have fed the brain so as put mankind in a position of “superior” intellect. I hope we use that gift to become more compassionate. I am not so Pollyanna as to think it will happen overnight, but the better life starts with each one of us. Among other things it includes what we choose to eat.

  52. Elizabeth says:

    I perceived great compassion and a remarkable lack of ego in Rainoshek’s presentation …He began his talk with (something to the effect) ~~~> “there is no person smart enough to be WRONG 100% of the time” ……. Therefore, we must (sort of) cull the golden nuggets from all the various stages of our evolutionary (and individual) development.

    When he spoke of magical thinking and ‘Lucky Charms’ cereal, I believe he was addressing the aggressive marketing ploys which prey on the tendency of young children to engage in magical thinking. ‘Eat this cereal and you will gain magical powers.’ (Indeed, children can sometimes grow into adults who stay locked in magical thinking) ……… In terms of evolutionary development, cultures engaged in magical thinking would likely have eaten a far more healthful (pristine) diet than in modern times. (His analogy worked in terms of describing some of the dietary choices we might make based on magical thinking in the ‘modern age.’)

    Regarding David’s tendency to introduce new concepts by way of saying “don’t worry what this means, for the moment” (or) “you can research this, later on,” I believe he was sincerely trying to help folks ‘see the forest’ (by way reassurance that focus on the ‘individual trees’ could take place at a later time.) ………. I think he is 100% correct in saying that many, many, people tend to ‘give up’ and drop back into poor eating habits due to ‘confusion’ and ‘overwhelm’ from the panorama of experts who, in many respects, present quite conflicting points of view.

  53. saskia says:

    My body has been teaching me what David explained so eloquently.
    At first, I didn’t want to hear what my body was saying. Then it started screaming! I had to listen.

    I fell into the camp that believed if a diet is good for a cleanse, it is good forever. But reality set in to prove otherwise.

    I still eat a high raw diet, but the addition of small amounts of animal products clearly is what I need.

    I would never say everyone has to arrive at the same conclusion. But
    keeping an open mind is what can save us more than any dogma ever could.

    I think David’s wrap-up is a perfect conclusion to the great health debate. And his list, at the end of his talk, of luminaries in the raw/vegan world who have begun incorporating some animal products cannot be ignored.

    Thank you, Kevin, for your courage to keep inquiring and sharing …
    and above all for your listening.

  54. Lori says:

    Thank you for this Kev! I started following you with the great health debate and have continued to do so. The information you are providing is very helpful. I have been looking for answers as to what way of eating is most healthful for me. You are much appreciated!

  55. PE says:

    Pat#14, good point about meat and calcium, less so about tools, because we’ve been using tools millions of years before we were us, Homo sapiens sapiens.
    More generally, people in this /these culture/s seem to want evolution to have levels. (“highly’ evolved, and thinking of bacteria as ‘lower’, for example)
    Evolution doesn’t oblige; there’s a minimum complexity ‘below’ which life on this planet doesn’t operate, but all ‘above’ that are alive and equally evolved, and despite some beliefs all continue to evolve, without direction (in that word’s meanings of outside control or a vector).
    There’s a stage of development among some Buddhists where their meditation recognizes levels of attainment, and a later stage where they realize that levels were an illusion.
    So it goes.

  56. Jasmine says:

    very enlightening discussion. Please ask David how much meat he eats per week/month, etc on average and how that may change from season to season. How long has he been incorporating meat in his diet and does he feel better now than ever?

  57. Andrew Chin says:

    Hello All,
    I am currently a student at Tree of Life Rejuvenation Center, although I enrolled after David graduated.
    I had been 100% raw for 2.5 years, but I was still not at optimal health. I have always had trouble maintaining my weight on a raw vegan diet, and I have a strong nutritional background, so it was not for lack of knowledge!
    Finally, I added animal products to my diet, and I gained ten pounds in a matter of a couple months. I am what is called a fast oxidizer, or in other words, an individual who requires a higher level of fat and protein in his/her diet. I agree with Dr. Mercola in that protein types do much better when animal foods are present in their diet. I am not sure what I was missing in my diet, but here are some ideas: Vitamin A [retinol] (27-46% of the population do not convert beta-carotene to retinol very well), saturated fat (I am Blood Type B, and this blood type possibly does not do well with saturated fat from coconut or chocolate), the synergy of saturated fat, complete protein and fat-soluble vitamins all in one package. Also, it’s possible some people do not synthesize amino acids well from vegetarian sources. There is still a lot we do not know.
    Lastly, protein types seem to do well with a higher purine content in their diet, since they are important in the energy production process for protein types.
    Thanks to David, Kevin and Ann Marie for these interviews. They are invaluable! I eagerly await David’s “Spectrum Diet” book.


  58. Josephine says:

    The Wholistic goes back to the primitive/archaic in its natural setting–using what the planet has to offer in its most natural state. Just now we have some technology that allows us to understand how to not make all of the same mistakes.

    And the Bible does say that G-d will destroy those who are destroying the Earth–Revelation 11:18. Isaiah 11:9 is interesting. Use the NKJV or NASB or RSV or NRSV to avoid a lot of Catholic misunderstanding. Still, when Jesus told Peter about his name meaning “rock” it meant a small stone. The following sentence uses a word for rock meaning a boulder. In other words, Jesus was telling Peter to stand down, not to be the first opinionated Pope.

  59. Andrew Chin says:

    Hello All,
    I forgot to include the importance of yin-yang balance in the diet. The raw vegan diet tends to be very “yin”, meaning cool and damp. You can try to bring in more yang energy with exercise, warming spices, dehydrated foods, nuts and seeds, adaptogenic “yang” herbs like cordyceps mushroom, etc. However, if an individual is still feeling cold, it might be appropriate to include animal foods in the diet, since these foods have more “yang” (warming) energy. This can be espcially useful during the fall and winter, which is a “yin” time of year.


  60. Eric Hartunian says:

    The book The Secret Life of Plants (1973) by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird was made into a movie in 1979 called “Journey Through The Secret Life of Plants”. It is online in many places such as(11 parts):

  61. Jaya Devi says:

    What I gleamed from this broadcast: If I eat a diet of mostly human neocortex I will ascend to the next evolutionary stage of my development and if the humans are local, there will be lots of side benefits! Thanks David and Kevin.
    Love, Out

  62. Keep up the great work Kevin, I’m really glad I’ve found your website after you brought “The Great Health Debate” to the world.
    I enjoyed listening to David today.

  63. Satori says:

    wow, the same exact thing happened to me when I moved to chilly Tokyo from warm Los Angeles. I was very happy in LA with my mostly raw vegan diet, but then things completely changed when I started to live in Japan. There were just problems after problems in my health with raw food. Now I eat some cooked food and eggs, and I feel much better.

  64. Amanda says:

    Hi everyone

    I really DIDN’T like this interview at all. I agree wholeheartedly with Chris and CY. To me it felt like just another person trying desperately to justify what they were doing and trying to drag everyone else along with them. It was self opinionated hype. It made me feel very uncomfortable. Nothing about this interview felt right. I couldn’t listen to this guy for long.

    All the best to you.

  65. I know David personally and he is one of the most honest and sincere people I have met. I guess though, when you think about it that applies to everyone. Anyway, I am angry that some people are harshly criticizing him without knowing anything about what he has gone through.

  66. Theresa says:

    I was quite turned off by the layers of justifications woven throughout this interview in regards to eating an omnivorous diet, which included his ‘who’s who list’ of ‘all’ of the ‘well known’ no longer vegans.

    It seems that few can talk about, and or debate, what is a healthy human diet without stepping up on a personal platform.

    I prefer David’s video of long ago in which he talked about eating as an act of love (the hero’s journey). There is more offered there than I feel was offered in this interview.

    I look forward to hopefully hearing fresh perspectives from people who are not on the ‘who’s who list’ in the future.

  67. Den says:

    Here’s what I love about the vegetarian, vegan and raw vegan cuisine: I love the beautiful, delicious and super creative ways plant food is prepared. Love, love, love the raw vegan desserts! So amazing! Thank you for the scrumptious contributions to add to my eclectic, nourishing, nutrient dense menu. But, I also love traditional foods preparing grassfed meats and pastured chickens and eggs from my small local grass farmer. An integral diet . . . an omnivore’s diet . . . wonderful balance! We need balance and peace. I’m proud of you David! Peace be with you.

  68. We can create more life than we kill by leaps and bounds if we grow our own “forest garden” using companion planting techniques, recycling all of our compost, and bodily waste into the soil, and harvesting all of our own food from our own land.

    If we grow all our own food (and possibly raise some animals — although I am a 100% rawvegan personally) then we may create no death from trucking, factory garbage, petroleum, etc.

    I take no supplements, endorse no supplements and do not believe we should need them at all. If we harvest a diverse land of our own, we need no supplements.

    I believe it’s okay to eat meat if you’re willing to hunt it down and kill it yourself and prepare it yourself on your own land. I am not willing. But I respect someone else still if they are.

    What I suggest does not require a lot of land. A space the size of a double bed is enough to feed a family in an fair climate, year round. Also, with indoor sprouting, one can attain the highest level of well being ever experienced.

  69. suzi says:

    I went 100% raw almost 2 years ago as i was suffering from chronic fatigue. The Rawsome diet cured my chronic fatigue and i am so grateful to this lifestyle for doing that for me. However, i did not ‘thrive’ until i started FASTING. I’m a huge fan of Tonya Zavasta, and in her books she talks extensively on fasting. I do not eat anything after 3pm until the next day when i have breakfast at 7am. I have sooooooo much energy, my mental clarity is supreme and my looks are improving in leaps and bounds, i am often surprised at how good i look and feel. You will never thrive on ‘ANY’ diet unless give your body a rest from eating. Fasting is obviously NOT for children and pregnant women, but if are a 100% raw and not thriving, you are probably eating too much and too late. Fasting is a practice that dates back to biblical times and done by many cultures and religions.

  70. Lilith says:

    Wow, I read the comments, and I get it I must salute the diversity of humans and what we need to get by…
    For me this interviews was two hours of theoretical mumbo jumbo to cover up the simple fact that Davids turned to meat because he was cold. A subject that he finally (and reluctantly?) covered the last 15 minutes of these two hours…
    I understand many needs to hang their beliefs and their cravings on big theoretical hangers to be comfortable…
    The problem as I see it is that people are so fundamentalistic, and so brought up to be obedient to a certain belief system… even as raw vegan or holistic etheric or whatever…

    A little story that pops up in my mind: Some tibetan monks went to visit Norway (in Scandinavia) to lecture there. The monks asked their hosts for some animal foods for their teacher. The hosts frowned: “What? Meat!? But are you not vegetarian?! :-o” whereupon the monks answered: “Yes, we are, at home in our country, but here it is cold and winter now, and we need the meat to balance the climate here.”

    It doesn’t need to be more complicated than that!

  71. Victoria St. Amand says:

    This interview is a fresh perspective on the ‘best diet’ debate. David’s viewpoint transcends the typical fundamentalist/dogmatic approach while simultaneously validating and incorporating all of the more rigid beliefs that have brought us to this point. This is the most cutting-edge interview I have listened to on the topic of nutrition. I feel the theories behind it can be applied to more than just diet; it goes beyond as a philosophy of human evolution and human nature.

    Thank you David & Kevin- this information is much needed and appreciated!

  72. Gail says:

    Shame on me – I didn’t even listen to the interview and I’m annoyed. Just based on a few of the commentaries and knowing me, I’m sure listening to him would just irritate me.

    Maybe sometime I will listen to it, but I have a feeling that like some others, I won’t be able to hang in there for long.

    I left a warm climate, and moved to a whacky climate that I despise and my health and habits are all over the place.
    And yes, I’m cold all the time.

    Much easier to be healthy and happy in my beautiful climate ‘back home’.

  73. Daneau says:

    Wow, thank you David and Kevin! This interview really blew my mind. This whole philosophical background that was laid out in order to explain David’s basis of thinking really helped to clarify his point. Not to knock Daniel Vitalis, but I found that David’s long winded explanation for reintroducing animal products really hit home (when I had never been even mildly swayed before).

    My question for David is: what animal products should be introduced into a vegan’s diet in order to optimize health (any ethics aside), and in what amount?

  74. Melina says:

    I really enjoyed this interview. My question for David is if he has looked into the Pelegasians that Dr. Cousens referred to in his lecture. I have not been able to find much about them yet. I am wondering if he has researched this because I would be curious to hear his perspective.

  75. Yusef says:

    We appreciate you. Bravo, David. We realized the truth of what you are saying a long time ago, and evolved out of the vegan diet and back to goat milk products and eggs, etc, especially after moving to the NW from the SW.
    I’m also an avid reader of Joseph Campbell. You are so right on! wonderful connections you’ve made, brilliant!
    The obsession with longevity and eternal youth so prominent in the raw vegan community, really does point to a denial of death, fear of aging, etc.
    We feel that no one ought to judge anyone for what they eat or don’t eat. I no longer look down my nose at those who eat meat.
    Too many raw vegans have a superiority complex, thinking this is the only way and everyone else is wrong, advocating that people living in the North get food shipped from the tropics, etc.
    They have more of an impact on the environment than they realize. So many are living out of balance with nature.
    They don’t realize or understand the cycle of life/death.
    Thank you.

  76. Julianne says:

    Whew! This talk really seemed to help people flesh (no pun intended) out their beliefs.
    I have always tended to be smug in my beliefs, and David’s interview helped me to let go of that a little. I appreciated that.

    But I do have a question–In the first hour of the interview, David mentioned that somewhere on his website he describes what it takes to recover from certain illnesses. I perused the website, but it’s very dense with information, and I couldn’t find it. I wonder if he would be so kind as to tell where I can find that information.

    Thank you, Kevin, for your work in bringing this debate to us.

  77. sesameb says:

    kevin, Thanks this was an excellent, and informative interview. No one person knows it all, and there is no one diet for everyon on the planet. I listened to the entire interview.

    I agree with this author’s comments:
    We need to consider the Biochemical makeup of each person, the seasons, the bioregions and the activity level, your world view, spiritual practice, careers, freedoms in life, and life circumstance. There is NO one diet for everyone. We need to honor and be in a flex flow in life. We are moving into a post industrial way of eating. Eating tons of fruit shipped from far away is not good!!!”
    I listened to the entire interview.
    Dew,barefootin’ getting plenty of deep restful sleep in my cabin
    rural south central sunny Arkansas

  78. sesameb says:

    I learned that 40 million Americans suffer from allergies as of March, 10, 2011 in America! This is sad!!
    Dew, living in a log cabin, no air conditioning, no computer and NO TV located in a meadow n rural Arkansas

  79. All you have to do is consume SUFFICIENT CALORIES primarily from fruits (DISTANT second best is steamed sweet potato and possibly some cooked legumes, but only if you are literally starving since you could not consume enough fresh ripe fruits), and make up the other ten percent or even less of your diet with dark greens and some veggies. Why does everyone make it sio darn complicated? I guess they need to sell stuff.

  80. PS CORRECTION.. most “health gurus” are helpful, but the MASSES are still in denial (thus they adhere like glue to poor eating habits) due to generations of habits…. old habits do die hard! I know- I killed my cravings and have been an “educated vegan” since 1985 and the same raw since 1999. Sure you have to “let go” but please do not get hooked into the meat, or “paleo” or complex trips! SIMPLE stuff people! Like the late great G Carlin advised, Avoid “spooky language”… that is what the wizards who “cast spells” tried to do.. and were successful… since they were able to control others with their fancy jargon and “spells”…NATURE knows best.. if you give her a chance! Stay away from man’s concoctions and convoluted thoughts on “diet this and diet that” Just learn the fundamentals of nutrtion (few ever learn them) and then apply the best foods you can find (pick is more like it). Done.

  81. Meghan says:

    WOW-thank you. I will make sure to stay connected to Mr. Rainoshek and his work in the future. I was, by far, more impressed with him and what he had to say than many other health and raw food experts out there. I really appreciate his background, having lived at the Tree of Life Center and worked with Dr. Cousens. This gives a lot of validity to his experience, in my opinion.

    I REALLY appreciate the way that nutrition was not talked about as a simply flat science. The individual, their culture, their geographical location, their personal evolution, and everything in between is part of what diet will work for that person. These things can’t be ignored.

    This interview has given me PEACE about our differences, and that is so valuable. I have been feeling schizophrenic for the past couple of years, reading all this different information. Listening to the debates was almost painful and tense! Now, it feels like to “opposites” can really co-exist.

    I would have liked to hear more about spirituality and nutrition since Mr. Rainoshek worked with Dr. Cousens. Spirituality is a concern for me because I still do not believe that eating meat is conducive to a highly spiritual life. This does not mean that meat-eaters can’t meditate, but if you desire a committed and serious and rigorous spiritual path/life, meat cannot be part of it.

    I don’t know if you have heard of Pranic Healing, but it is an energy healing modality based on rigorous experimentation and clairvoyant observation. Pranic Healing involves essentially cleaning away dirty energy or prana and energizing with fresh prana for healing. What has been observed, quite simply, is that flesh is absolutely full of dirty energy. This is one more obstacle to healing. As an energy healer, I can tell you that meat-eaters have much dirtier auras and energy than vegetarians. Those who give up meat, at least for the duration of healing, have an easier time healing. The dirty and dense prana from meat slows one’s vibration, slows the flow of one’s energy, and contributes to blockages and dirty prana stuck in the body.

    Of importance to me as well is that one gets into more advanced meditation, the energy in that person’s body moves SO fast after a certain number of years of practice, that to eat meat has the effect of causing major pains in the body. There are many to whom this has happened who can tell you. It is like throwing a suitcase onto the freeway with cars going 70mph. The fast, healthy energy crashes into this blockage.

    For this reason, it is clear to me that eating meat is NOT part of the human destiny. It is part of the human destiny to evolve and raise our vibration. Looking to the past does not inform us of what to eat because, as David points out, we have left certain levels of consciousness behind, valuable as they were. I feel that those who naturally vibrate at a higher frequency will feel more comfortable physically without meat.

    I really appreciate David’s very interesting analysis of the human personalities and, dare I say, egos behind the raw diets being promoted. The obsession to live forever and be the hero and have all the answers have nothing to do with science and do not value the individual and their needs.

    Thank you for the refreshing, very insightful, very intelligent look in this confusing and emotionally-charged topic! David, please take a look at Pranic Healing:

  82. Melissa says:

    Just wanted to add that there are many high raw or plant-based diets out there, ones that have lived to a ripe old age past 100. Check out John Robbins’ book living and loving and lasting: the scientifically proven secrets of the world’s healthiest and longest lived people. The Abkhasia (Russia) ate 90% of their diet from plant foods and only 10 from animal foods, the Vilcabamba (Ecuador) and the Hunza (Pakistan) ate 99% plant foods and 1% animal foods. Mainly carbohydrates and very little fat ranging from 10-13 % of daily intake. Coincidence? I think not. Also, meat is strictly unnecessary for the human diet and is in fact detrimental to health. Protein is available in all vegetables and all fruit. In fact, a pound of broccoli contains more protein than steak. I’d also like to mention that before the advent of cooking and the combustion engine, humans survived on the plant-based, fruit diet, with minimal animal products. Not many people like the taste of raw meat. In fact, a recent study found that 80 percent of adults surveyed stated they would not eat meat if they had to kill it themselves. Food for thought?

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