Quick and Painless Death For Factory Farmed Animals? : Great Health Debate Night 7 Snack Bites

Sunday Feb 13 | BY |
| Comments (72)

cow factory farm
On the way to the slaughterhouse for a “quick” death.

I’m kind of glad we had to change our schedule and have Sally Fallon and Will Tuttle last night…

I understand T. Colin Campbell would have been great on the same night as Sally, but Will Tuttle provided a philosophical argument that was so opposite Sally’s that this night generated even more discussion than the first.

Here are my thoughts on what I heard…

1. The story of the elephant is the story of The Great Health Debate.

I think the most fitting contribution of the night from Will Tuttle was the story about the Indian people and the elephant.

In the story, there are a half a dozen men standing around an elephant and holding different parts of it.

One man who is holding the tail, says “this must be a rope.”

Another holding a leg, says, “no, it’s a column.”

Another has the trunk in his hands and proclaims, “it’s a hose!”

The story goes on, but there’s no need to share more.

The story of the elephant is the same story of The Great Health Debate – and, in fact, a very elegant way to explain what I felt about the health world as I put this event together.

Each person holding the different parts of the elephant is right, but not in the whole context. They each have part of the elephant, but from their view, they only know what they see.

In the health world, and in particular the collection of experts we have here, are doing much of the same thing.

Some see more of the elephant than others, but we’re all very myopic in our picture of health if we just focus on nutrition and exercise.

2. The world won’t turn vegan overnight.

It’s an unpopular thought for many, but it’s true.

It will take decades for us to eat less meat.

Things like this take time to transition – we have to break down belief systems.

Unfortunately, to get people healthier we need to address sugar, processed foods and excess salt first – before we tackle meat-eating.

Why?

Convincing people that eating crap from a box isn’t good for their health is a much easier to do than try to tell them to eat less meat.

Also, I have a feeling that if we removed meat first, and still had all the processed foods, we’d still have a ridiculous amount of disease, which would make governmental agencies believe (as they already do) that clearly meat isn’t the issue.

But to make this all happen and in order to get people to eat less processed foods, we need to subsidize vegetables to make them cheaper than boxed Kraft Macaroni and Cheese… if this doesn’t happen, people will always vote with their wallet for the foods that are killing them.

(NOTE: At the same time, we DO need to show the atrocities that happen at factory farms to stop this awful practice.)

3. Primary research vs. secondary research.

Sally Fallon makes an important distinction about herself that I applaud.

The told us in the beginning of the interview that she is a secondary researcher. This means she reads and looks at the research of the primary researchers – the ones that are in the lab.

Most health experts are secondary researchers.

This isn’t a good or a bad thing, but it does lead to misinterpretation of the data.

I spent a few minutes talking to Dr. Williams about this yesterday and he explained that research scientists are not as “sure” about their results as the health experts who read their papers.

This is good evidence that our particular model of sharing health information may be a little flawed.

4. Everyone wants to demonize someone…

No matter what your belief system, everyone wants to demonize something.

Sally Fallon demonized the “mighty” vegetable oil industry in her talk.

On the other side, Will Tuttle made me feel like a violent criminal for having a pet.

I think there’s more room to give some people and organizations the benefit of the doubt here, but that’s just what I believe.

5. Sally Fallon is not concerned about the toxicity of fish.

I think sometimes the contrarian position can be taken too far.

Some of the Sally’s points are good and make sense to me. Others don’t.

At times, it seems like the contrarian – us vs. them – position is taken too far in the health world.

People say, “all this is bad,” or “all this is good” without critically analyzing the individual aspects of the argument.

In this case, all meat is not good.

In the case of fish, the EPA and other public health governmental bodies speak very loudly against eating fish and seafood in any large amount.

This is well documented (as I mentioned in an earlier analysis of this event.)

I’ve come to learn, that When a government agency warns against toxicity of something, you know it is toxic.

The reason why is because it takes YEARS for them to make sure every financial interest is informed and all policy makers won’t get their toes stepped on to actually proclaim something is toxic.

Fish, in so many ways, can be incredibly toxic – particularly larger fish like tuna, swordfish, shark and even salmon.

I wouldn’t recommend eating much at all, if any.

6. Quick and painless death in a factory farm?

I know…

It’s very easy to criticize specific things that people say after the fact.

But this one is like a hanging fast ball to A-Rod, so I’m going to have to crank on it.

Sally Fallon made the point that even in factory farms they are killed much more humanely than if they were to die in the wild.

What she completely whiffed on was how they spend their entire lives – under the most cruel and deplorable conditions a living creature can endure. Months or years of torture are not vindicated by a quick death.

(NOTE: I understand Sally’s viewpoints on factory farming, I feel she needed to be much more clear to the audience here, because it was taken poorly by many of the listeners.)

7. No one is 100% right and no one is 100% wrong.

Unfortunately, these issues are not black and white.

Nothing really ever is.

There are many ideas and principles that have been discussed throughout this debate that need more clarification and deeper understanding.

I think one of the biggest challenges for me as an interviewer has been to stay neutral during the program and let my biases aside.

There have been false statements by both sides throughout the whole program. There have also been strikingly true statements as well.

I think having Will and Sally on the same night was fortuitous, because the represent two very different an opposing sides of the philosophy of eating.

Sally feels animals are here for us to eat.

Will believes animals are not.

Who’s right?

**
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Live Awesome!
Kev

Kevin Gianni

Kevin Gianni is a health author, activist and blogger. He started seriously researching personal and preventative natural health therapies in 2002 when he was struck with the reality that cancer ran deep in his family and if he didn’t change the way he was living — he might go down that same path. Since then, he’s written and edited 6 books on the subject of natural health, diet and fitness. During this time, he’s constantly been humbled by what experts claim they know and what actually is true. This has led him to experiment with many diets and protocols — including vegan, raw food, fasting, medical treatments and more — to find out what is myth and what really works in the real world.

Kevin has also traveled around the world searching for the best protocols, foods, medicines and clinics around and bringing them to the readers of his blog RenegadeHealth.com — which is one of the most widely read natural health blogs in the world with hundreds of thousands of visitors a month from over 150 countries around the world.

72 COMMENTS ON THIS POST

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  1. Great summary Kevin, I think you are so right, I think almost all these experts seem to get a tunnel vision and decide there is one way or the high way and try to always make it black and white, but its clearly not.

    It seems like there are never any inbetweens, a person who supports being vegan seems to be against all meat and will try to put you off it for life, I’m sure a better idea is to discuss how reducing it can help and only eating organic free range is better than doing nothing and you could just tell throughout the whole interview with Sally, it was as if she could not bare to say any form of meat, fish, dairy or eggs were bad, even if she knew they were.

    I mean the Western A Price foundation is all about organic natural food, so how can she say factory farmed is ok?

    That is why I actually enjoyed Daniel Vitalis and J.E Williams I can see why he is your Doctor, he was much more relaxed and not forceful in his views and just put forward why he thought meat is good for health, not lots of it and any type, but just some.

    Great work on the choice of experts as well.

    Ollie

  2. Robin Janis says:

    So I have listened to much but not all of the interviews, thus I may be mistaken. But I have not heard much about eating seasonally and locally. I am a huge consummer of coconut oil so I should be careful not to call the pot black. But perhaps eating more cooked, warming, animal based foods in the colder months– especially if one lives in a temperate climate and not in a sub-tropical one– and shifting to more of a high raw diet in the warmer seasons is, well…natural. Somewhere in all this debate and information must be a tuning into nature, into the cyclical flow of the seasons that course through and around us all. I don’t want to eat watermelon in winter in NYC the way I may crave it in the summer. Any thought anyone?

  3. Susie says:

    I feel we are here with animals for us to both learn how to coexist. Animals are not here solely for us to eat, however, coexistence may mean killing and eating them SOMETIMES. (Implied here, is humane treatment and loving care if they are not wild.) There is a way to live harmoniously with animals and other life on this planet and kill it only when necessary. I think natives had (and some still have) a lot more of a clue about this than we do.
    This was great, Kev. Keep the good work 🙂

  4. Jensey says:

    To quote … “Sally feels animals are here for us to eat. Will believes animals are not. Who’s right?” Well, Will actually answered that question when he told us of his belief in ‘Radical Inclusion.” I don’t think this is what he meant, but if we are going to include everything, then that means EVERY thing. So, both are ‘right’ …

    I felt ill to my stomach when Sally spoke about the deaths of animals in factory farms. I could rant for a very long time about this issue, and I could sit Sally down for a viewing of some videos/films that might just open her eyes a bit wider, but I won’t do either. I know what I have seen with my eyes, and I know what I know in my heart, and it doesn’t mean anything to me what anyone else says. I am clear for myself, and that’s all I care about.

    It’s funny Kevin, but last night was the first time that I felt the polar-split between the two speakers. And it’s the first night that I went to bed emotionally shaken … both speakers promoted some interesting conversation in my household … and I had nightmares. Subsequently, I woke up this morning very clear … and in the words of Dr. Williams … very confident.

    Thanks for an interesting listening experience!

  5. valerie says:

    I was disappointed that Will’s conversation was very philosophical versus scientific in my opinion. I was really curious as to the actual benefits or contraindications of being vegan. This actually brought a truth home to me; it can’t be all or nothing, not just the argument but for each individual. I was a raw vegan (about 90% raw) for almost two years. It didn’t work for me. I loved mentally what I was doing but in the process I developed ulcerative colitis and got a hemorrhoid so large (sorry to be so graphic) that I thought my colon was descending. After months with an acupuncturist I am much better but the bottom line is, for my body, raw vegan doesn’t work. Now I have my own chickens (5, vegetarian diet, free range) and I eat egg whites on a daily basis (still can’t stomach the yolk). I haven’t taken to eating meat but do go for various organic rice and bean combos as well as chlorella. I still eat lots of fresh organic veggies but gently steam them now. Some foods, like tomatoes, actually need heat to release the enzymes. I know this is getting slightly off topic (it’s about vegan, not raw) but the point I am trying to make is: don’t stress so much. Stay away from processed foods, eat local, organic and DO WHAT YOUR BODY TELLS YOU TO versus some fad or magazine. The body works in concert with the mind, not against it. Thanks for “listening.”

  6. Kevin, You are amazing!!! Everything from the concept of this series, the people you lined up, the the format of the presentations and opportunities for comments ALL FREE has been outstanding! But what has impressed me the most has been your ability to draw out and allow those with extreme views to express them without imposing your opinions. Your generosity and the respect you have shown to everyone has been a humbling inspiration to me. I am passionate about nutrition and strongly believe in what works for me at this point in my life, but I am coming to understand that every single person is unique in what their bodies, minds and souls need at any given time. If we try to force others to do as we do, even if we “know” it would be best for them, all we will do is alienate. Presenting different views and allowing people to educate themselves and make choices in this way was absolutely brilliant. You are my new guru! Although I am committed to getting almost all of my nutritional needs from food, I will check out your products and hope others do the same as a way of thanking you for all of the hard work you put into this. Also, I am assuming that with all of your vast knowledge about food that you have heard of Mila, but if not, it is a whole raw plant based food that is the best source of omega 3s I have found and is packed with fiber, protein and nutrients. Check out lifemax.net/phoenix1 if you are interested in learning more. THANK YOU for everything you do. The world needs more people like you!

  7. Kevin, great comments, and overall I have been impressed by your neutrality in this event.

    One quick comment – Sally Fallon and WAP group aggressively promote pastured farming, aka eco-farming, where the animals are living as symbiotically with nature as possible, mimicking what we see in nature (rotational grazing, etc) – she does not promote factory farming.

    BUT yes, an animal EVEN in a factory farm setting –> getting one shot to the head is faster & much more humane than being ripped apart by a pack of wild predators, suffering for long periods of time after being chased and eaten alive .. one shot to the head may seem unethical outside of the context, but it is actually much more humane than in nature.

    Factory farmed cattle actually spend a good deal of time outdoors for a good part of their lives – its not pastured farming, and often is a dirt prison yard, but its the last part of their prison lives that they go indoors before being slaughtered. So her point is correct…

    This is not the case with other farm animals like poultry, but as far as cows are concerned, it is more humane to be killed this way which was Sally’s point – she wasn’t referring to their entire life cycle on industrial farms not promoting the idea .. she made a point about biology – you cannot have life without death.

  8. radha says:

    With all due resect to state that we can keep animals that are in our care and that as long as we treat them lovingly we can kill them is an oxymoron at the least and psycho at worst. I am saying this as it is so unfathomable to me to kill the ones we love.

  9. Chris says:

    actually it could be said that domestic animals are here for us to eat since they have been bread for 1,000’s of years specifically for that purpose.There are no wild cows or chickens.

    I have to agree on the local comment.
    I find it odd that people would prefer to eat algae and fermented rice protein shipped and processed (in plastic)from parts unknown rather than some eggs from a local farm that they can drive to and see first hand.That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

    Also I think the idea that all meat is toxic is not realistic to say the least.Consider that most people live in an urban environment and are exposed to far more toxins breathing than could ever accumulate in grass fed steak from a rural farm.I trust local farms WAY more than all of the potions and powder$.

  10. Clark says:

    I am more willing to trust the nature of my body on this than a opinion. To me that there is evidence to support that our bodies were designed for using meat as an energy source. our body does produce enzymes naturally (Research the pancreas function) which will break down meat proteins. and then there is this well reasoned but links a response from Jon Barron on the subject of dietary composition. Still everyone should make up their own mind because some people are different and may not do as well with a particular type of diet. Neither does my choice to eat small regular amounts of meat, allow me off the hook for how I spend my money and what industry I support by spending my money.

    “we reach the last point of comparison: the length of the alimentary canal compared to the length of the body.

    An examination of the carnivore intestinal tract reveals a short (relative to the length of their body) tract for fast transit of waste out of the body. The actual length of the carnivore bowel (small and large combined) is approximately 3–5 times the length of the body — measured from mouth to anus — a ratio less than half that found in humans. Fast transit of waste for carnivores is essential for two reasons. The faster the transit, the less opportunity for parasites to take hold. Also, meat tends to putrefy in the intestinal tract, so fast transit limits exposure to the byproducts of putrefaction.

    As for the herbivore (cows, sheep, etc.) bowel, at 20–28 times the length of the body (from mouth to anus), it usually runs almost eight times longer than a carnivore’s, since plant matter (unlike meat) is not prone to putrefaction, thus rendering quick elimination moot. Again, not much like us.
    As for the bowel of the frugivore (gorilla, orangutan, chimpanzee, etc.), it runs about 10–12 times the length of the body from mouth to anus.
    So which intestinal tract does the human alimentary canal most closely resemble? As we discussed in our Digestive System Overview, the entire system runs about 30 feet in length from mouth to the anus.
    Let’s total up the lengths we’ve identified so far:
    Esophagus equals one foot
    Small intestine equals 23 feet
    Bowel equals five feet (as cited above)
    That’s 29 feet. Add in the mouth, stomach, and rectum and you have a total length of approximately 30 feet. Now compare that to the length of the body (mouth to anus). Why mouth to anus and not head to toe? Because when calculating the body length of four legged animals, we don’t stretch out the legs and add them in. We measure from mouth to tail, and so, for a valid comparison, we need to do the same with humans. In any case, mouth to anus is about 2.5 to 3 feet. That gives you a ratio of 10-12 to one. Bingo! It’s an absolute match to the frugivore intestinal tract.
    What should we eat?

    So, are we restricted to fruits and nuts? No. In fact, the frugivores we most closely resemble, the wild chimpanzees, periodically eat live insects and raw meat. Among the great apes (the gorilla, the orangutan, the bonobo, and the chimpanzee) and ourselves, only humans and chimpanzees hunt and eat meat on a frequent basis. Nevertheless, chimpanzees are largely fruit eaters, and meat comprises only about 3 percent of their diet — far less than is found in the typical Western diet.
    Is a vegetarian diet automatically healthier? Not necessarily. Some people actually do better when they include small amounts of meat in their diet — although, to be sure, a balanced vegetarian diet appears to offer some protection against cancer and heart disease. Other factors in our diet, however, affect our health to a much greater degree than whether or not we eat meat. The bottom line is that, ethical questions aside, eating small amounts of meat, chicken, or fish probably comes down mostly to a personal choice. If you choose to, you can include meat in your diet without any significant health problems — with the following provisos:
    Keep the amount small, three ounces a day or less.
    If you’re going to eat meat, eat organic. Eat grass fed beef, free range chicken and eggs, wild caught fish.
    Avoid or minimize dairy. And if you must have it, have it raw — or at the very least free of growth hormones. Remember, heat (pasteurization) denatures proteins, specifically making several dairy proteins relatively indigestible and highly allergenic.
    Include lots of water soluble fiber in your diet to keep the unabsorbed proteins moving through the digestive tract. If nothing else, incorporate a tablespoon of psyllium as part of your daily regimen.

  11. afke says:

    We live in a rural farm community in B.C. Canada. Our neighbours to the left milk their sheep, we buy eggs from our neighbours to the right. Old laying hens go in the pot, and lambs are slaughtered at six months. I hate the killing part. My 75 yr old neighbour puts her old laying hens on the block and cuts their heads off. She is pretty good with the axe, but not perfect. I am a Raw Vegan chef and teach people about gardening, eating seasonal, organic and local food. I grew up on a large dairy farm and watched my dad do mouth to mouth on a prematurely born calf, or butcher a still born baby. I do not like the thought of a creature killed to give me supper. ( I detest how agri farming raises animals.) However I believe that I do need a little meat every now and again. (I also eat some cooked foods now and again) The point is to eat with grace and celebrate all the gifts that God has provided to nourish body, spirit and soul. No need to be so terribly scientific. Your body knows. Your cells know. Just listen and be kind to all that grows and lives.

  12. Sam says:

    “Months or years of torture are not vindicated by a quick death.”

    Sally didn’t argue this. Do you really think Sally was making an argument for torture? Have you ever read a single word Sally has written otherwise? You know she’s against factory farming, right? To state that she was attempting to argue that torture was justifiable or “vindicated” because of the relatively quick death in the end is very dishonest. That wasn’t her point, and you know that.

    If I’m going to die, I’d much prefer to be shot in the head rather than be eaten alive. Does pointing this out mean I’m vindicating factory farming?

  13. Shirley J says:

    “I’ve come to learn, that When a government agency warns against toxicity of something, you know it is toxic.”

    I agreed with your statement above Kevin at first glance. And then the questions crept in – for I really don’t ever Trust Government fully.

    Did the meat industry or some other competitor of the fish industry, or those who profit in the fish industry have some influence in the “government” coming to this conclusion. Whoever has the most $$ gets the government “stamp” of approval or disapproval.

  14. Mary says:

    Hi Kevin,
    Once again so riveting! I have been vegetarian for 33 years and yet on and off in terms of being vegan. One thing I know is that if I judge too much I find myself falling off the horse (not with meat because I never missed it).
    I will say that I have pets, too, and am always aware that I have to deal with meat, so I bless it mightily! saying “Thank you for your giveaway. May your souls be blessed. May your progeny be blessed and may all the souls that brought you to me be blessed with the highest wisdom and actions where you are concerned.” And I really see that future when these wrongs are righted. I trust that when we get more conscious it will all work out.

    I have thought about making my dog a vegetarian, yet my cats never were able to do it when I tried. I will say that Will did not at all make me feel guilty about having to deal with meat, just more thoughtful. I absolutely loved his talk the best of all because he represents sanity for us as humans.
    I know that Ann Wigmore made her dog and cat vegetarian and said they did just fine….She didn’t have my babies!

    I tend to see a defensiveness with some of the meat eaters arguments, and if you look closely you can see the difference between denial and true objectivity and comfort. Sally and Daniel had too much denial (and Daniel’s was more evident). If one were to hang out or work at the factory farms, or even some that Will described, you have to do some DEEP soul searching to rectify all the violence that goes on. Otherwise it’s just good old fashioned denial, which is epidemic in our culture.

    And I see something very different when a people or person truly has respect for what they are doing when they take a life. The ramifications are huge, so traditionally the indigenous spent alot of time in ceremony and respect for these animals. They were deeply respected which is what we all want, whether we are human or animal or even plant (which I feel is somewhat different in that it was more “designed” for us to eat…..uh oh, another debate!)

    I agree with and disagree with you in terms of the people making changes around meat. There is alot less beef eaten (but more chicken) since the powers that be came out with their campaign about how bad too much beef can be for you. I have alot more hope after seeing what the Egyptian people did so quickly!

    Thanks again for this Debate……it has helped me so much with my struggle to stay raw, believe it or not!

    Mary

  15. Sharon says:

    Interesting to see this in my Inbox today right after listening to Sally talk about vegan children. Highly recommended to all prospective parents:

    http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/blog/?p=1791

    I would have liked to see someone talk about seasonal eating too. I can live happily on fruits and veggies and virtually no fat in the summer but in the winter I’d probably shoot myself in the head on that diet. I’m sure location and season has a lot to do with the state of our health. I’m sure there’s more to sunlight than just Vitamin D too. Still waiting for Kevin to interview someone on light therapy, LOL

    If what my Jewish friend told me is correct about Kosher then eating Kosher meat would be most humane if you don’t have the possibility to grown your own. We really need to all get back to homesteading and more do-it-yourself food. If everyone had to kill their own meat they would likely eat far less of it too.

    Grow a garden. Add a few chickens or a goat for fertilizer and for eggs and milk and pets. Done properly a backyard garden can sustain an entire family and not ruin the planet with monoculture. You can even grow your fish using Aquaponics. If you’re in the US you can check it out here: http://www.affbot3.com/link-639656-44359-1613-21848?plan=868 The place is in California and they welcome visitors. If you’re not in the US just search it out on youtube.

    Kevin’s comment about feeling guilty for having a cat is EXACTLY why I will never commit to 100% veganism. I’m sure Will’s heart is in the right place but the religious fanaticism is just ridiculous. I’m totally against animal cruelty and almost all animal farming. Feeling guilt is worse than eating a Twinkie when it comes to health!!!

    If you or your pets eat meat, just be appreciative of it and thank God for it and be happy that you all have food to eat. A happy meat eater will benefit our planet more than a whiny, miserable or judgmental vegan. Virtually all meat eaters could just eat LESS. A lot less! Instead of a burger or roast, have a stirfry and work your way down from there. A bit of fish or meat with a huge salad. Then progress to nuts and seeds instead of meat, etc. A condiment in some soup versus having meat as the main attraction.

  16. Shirley J says:

    Just one addition to the above —

    As a Weston Price member I KNOW that Sally would never recommend or approve anything to do with factory farming or slaughtering. She is doing more than any other person i know of to change that through educating the public.

    I am thankful to be able to buy beef, pork and poultry from local farms where they are raised out on pasture – totally – to maturity. When it is time to slaughter an expert from the slaughter house comes out, walks out into the field talking to the animal. They are completely calm. In one shot the animal is dropped – the others around do not even become alarmed. The carcass is then prepared for hanging right there.

    I love animals of every kind and I want them to have the best life possible. In the wild they have enemies. A cougar or a wolf pack, for example, will prey on them in their weak moments and I’m sure that creates a LOT of fear in the animal as they chase them and take them down – the same if the predator is after one of their calves. In the wild they may or may not have access to the food and water they need. So while the wild seems the best option it isn’t always.

    Most people have pets (in my case cats, you could use the same argument about pets – that they are deprived of their “wild” life.

    I know from experience that I need some meat for health. I don’t eat meat every meal or every day for that matter. I know when I need it because of a different kind of hunger. I have sworn off any animal product in restaurants or commercial establishment that is not from the type farm I describe. Some of our local restaurants get their meat from farms in our area that are like that.

  17. Chris says:

    What are the false statements that the speakers have made?

  18. Jensey says:

    I’m in agreement with Robin that a focus on local was not much in evidence with the speakers. Probably Daniel Vitalis and Dr. Williams were the only ones … though I think perhaps Frederic P. is eating local produce/fruit when south of the border … since who wouldn’t be!

    In my life I lean toward what’s available in my local environment and what’s in season here in New England. So I’m not much interested in avocados or coconuts … though I do at times (though it is seldom) eat both … along with a higher consumption of lemons. We have such awesome 4-season growers here in NE that we are truly blessed … I’m eating local organic spinach and basil which is really wild! Love local!!

  19. I totally agree coming from a farm back ground & I personally hauled cattle to the packers & the smell death when you back the truck up to the unloading chute. I am nearly vegetarian & go for long spells not eating meat. I cry every time I see the cattle liners loaded with the poor cattle knowing that they are going to their death. We could & it can be done by growing; all our own food & trading with our neighbors for what we didn’t produce in our own backyard. I don’t feel any thing or anyone thing should die if there are other natural choices. Some people I know just eat meat & potatoes & pastas’ because the find it easy to cook & don’t want to make the effort to change their ways of thinking & read to self educate. The Health Watch programs on TV are their bibles as it is an easy way out. People just have to make the effort to change because the future & the polluted food chain on the factory farms & produce farms is constantly making folks sick. I recently on public TV listened to a discussion on the way chicken is fed & treated with anti-biotics & how it seems without saying it out right; that it is not safe for human consumption because; should we get ecoli or salmonella etc we will not be helped by the conventional ant-biotics because the chickens are so full of these medications that our bodies will resist the treatment. We have to start reading & doing for ourselves, we cannot rely on any magic bullet. The old ways will & have to return in order to be self sufficient & a much healthier life. We will not have time to play with all the electronic toys & watch TV everyone will learn what life & living is all about, which is lacking today!

  20. Dear Kevin,

    Myself and 2 of my masters students(Philip and Susan Madley have research with over 130 vegan and/or live food children that shows a 80%live food vegan pregnant mother will have healthy babies with all within nl. height, weight and the aberage was in the top 25% percent of ht. and weights for new born. In following children rased on a live food diet 50% were in the 5th percentile in weight( inspite of the meat eaters having alot more hormones in their food) and there average means for height was in the upper 25% for the 80% livefood vegan children. This is a very important set ofstatistics that speaks to the question you raised. I would be greatful if you could make this research point cear so parents will stop worrying. We hope to get this research published soon in a nutritional journal. It is the oly study that has ever scientifically looked at the question. My clinical expereince for 40 years is that plant source only kids are more generally healthy, sharper, and at least average or better height and weight.

    2. a great deal of the population is deficient in vit A,D,and K. Plant source only people can get K and D naturally, but 23-46% of plant source only people are missing an enzyme for converted Beta-caroteen to vit A. We are presently looking for a way to create this missing enzyme naturally. Otherwise plant source only people get sufficient A from B-caroteen.

  21. Dianna Solmes says:

    Sally feels animals are here for us to eat. Will believes animals are not. Who’s right?
    Sally is right – animals are here for us to eat, as well as use for transportation, sport, pets, or whatever we decided to use them for. Notwithstanding that people often make very bad choices/decisions about what they want to do with them. Men were meant to learn right principles, chose the right, and govern themselves. But because natural man has not bridled his appetites properly, many injustices have been done to animals, but even worse to man himself! (Marxism, Stalinism, Nazism, etc.)

    During the millennium, the lion will lie down with the lamb, which is what you are pushing for. All creatures will become grass eaters (vegetarians). So obviously we can be perfectly healthy on strictly vegetarian diets. However, it will require much change starting with the hearts of men. There would not be the large herds of meat animals left on the planet. So they wouldn’t die to feed us, but they would die to reduce their numbers so that plants could take their place. And why does everyone think that animals have spirits but plants don’t? Even the rocks have spirits!!!
    The Gospel According to St Luke: Chapter 19, verse 40: And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
    Doctrine and Covenants 89; 10-15 (there is more on the subject.)
    10And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
    11Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with aprudence and bthanksgiving.
    12Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
    13And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
    14All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
    15And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

    You really are preaching religion, but you don’t know it yet.

  22. Sandra says:

    Thank you Kevin for these talks. If anything it has reminded me not to just listen to one view but to hear both sides. Looking forward to your future videos, always food for thought.

  23. Cathy says:

    I love Sally Fallon’s cookbook, but she sounded sort of mean and angry in her interview I thought. I was sad 🙁 haha.

  24. ardeth says:

    I largely agreed with Tuttle’s ethical philosophy, but I was having trouble with the audio and must have missed him saying that having pets is a bad thing, presumably because dogs and cats are usually fed animal-based diets and are environmentally taxing.

    I currently have three dogs and six cats, all rescued (shelter animals or strays). I feed them normal dog and cat diets w/animal products because I don’t believe I should impose my vegan practices on them, and they will not voluntarily eat purely plant-based (although I do mix into their regular food ingredients like brown rice and pureed veggies).

    I know it is environmentally problematic to have pets (including dealing with their feces), but on the other hand, compassion dictates that we animal advocates do as much as we can to care for the many homeless animals that are on the planet, just as I think people who are child-oriented should provide for the homeless children that are born all over the world.

    At the same time, I am passionately pro-spay/neuter and against the deliberate breeding of dogs, cats and other pets by pet fanciers, pet mills, or backyard breeders, which I believe is unethical in light of the millions of healthy dogs, cats, rabbits, etc., euthanized abandoned every year for lack of homes.

  25. Bridget Wood says:

    Sally Fallon is either misinformed or trying to deceive people when she states that animals do not suffer at the hands of humans in farming and in the slaughterhouse. In the UK the main supermarkets have agreed to install CCTV cameras in slaughterhouses because of the suffering and abuse. She is also misleading people by saying that animals would be killed in other ways in any case and that they will suffer more from being killed in the wild. This is simply not true. Everyone knows that animals in the wild have a chance to either fight or flight which is a part of nature. She should stick to the facts about nutrition and not try to engage in the moral and ethical arguments which she obviously knows nothing about. She is using one vegetarian (Kellogg) to discredit everyone who lives a connected and compassionate way.

  26. Juli says:

    It has already been proven scientifically in Quantum physics/mechanics that consciousness is one unified field. We cannot separate “your” consciousness from “my” consciousness…we are all connected. If the computer/book/brain were to be eliiminated, does that mean the knowledge dies with it? No. Knowledge lives on in our Consciousness for eternity. Animals have consciousness…they have feelings, or how could your dog run up to you, tail wagging, when you come home, if he did not feel something? Your dog’s soul could be in the cow body, or pig body…no difference. Once I was made aware of this principle, and felt it’s truth inside, I immediately, without struggle, became vegan in 1998. A great yogi, Kaliji, taught me this. She has been vegan for over 33 years, and even inspired John Robbins to write “Diet for a New America”. It is crucial we begin to address the way we treat animals, or many ills that plague our world will not improve. We are overly concerned with our “physical” world, without looking enough at our “spiritual” world, which is every bit as real. Animals have every right to LIVE out their lives, as we do, whether they are “grass fed” or not. We, the animal kingdom, including the species “homo sapien” (humans), are simply sharing the space here on the planet.

  27. jackie says:

    I think it’s important to hear all these different viewpoints, even though now I’m more confused! LOL So thank you, Kevin, for all your hard work.
    As you’ve inferred in the past, there probably isn’t only one right answer, and a diet that is optimal for one person may not be for the next. Darn! I’d rather just ascribe to one belief system for all and be dogmatic about it, but alas, I can’t. Each belief has its own strong and weak points. The hard part now is to figure out what’s best for Me. I still find the idea of killing animals for my own sustenance revolting, so even if I were told that I needed to eat a high animal diet for optimul health, I don’t think I could do it. I am, however, beginning to make some concessions (eggs and occasionally very small amounts of meat/poultry, or raw milk), but to go “all out” goes against my reason and instincts and compassion for animals at this point, and I can’t imagine a drastic change at any future time.

  28. Valerie says:

    I was very interested to learn that there are vegan societies that have been living this way for many generations. Weston Price wanted to find such cultures in his travels and he was disappointed. Though, he never went to India or China. I would like to know more abut these societies. I didn’t catch the names of them. Can anyone help me out?

    I don’t understand #2 above. Why is it a goal to decrease the amount of meat eaten? I thought this Great Health Debate was not about a diet agenda.

    I listened to the recording. The toxicity of fish was a small part of the interview with Sally Fallon. I expected to to see a summary in the wrap up about Sally Fallon’s main points. I think the largest point is that animal foods are necessary in the diet in order to get nutrients not available in plant foods. She spoke quite a bit about raw milk, liver and bone broth. The most important reason is for reproduction and the health of growing children.

    I am concerned about factory farming. The suffering of animals, illness caused when animals are fed diets that are wrong for them, antibiotics, growth hormones, the resulting CAFO pollution, and working conditions are big concerns to me. I am also concerned about agriculture practices such as monocultures, GMOs, chemical fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico, topsoil loss, mineral deficient foods, super weeds, farm worker injury and illness, subsidies to grow way too much GMO corn and soy, petroleum used to ship foods across the world, lack of varieties in the plants grown, plants engineered to produce infertile seeds, and GMO drift to neighboring organic fields. I think people on both sides of the health debate can find common ground there. The best farming practices tend to coincide with the greatest nutrition in the food. Sadly, factory farming isn’t about nutrition, it is about yield per acre.

    I am heartened to hear Will Tuttle talk about spirituality, compassion and consciousness. The world needs more compassion. There also needs to be compassion for people who cannot thrive without animal foods in their diet. No amount of prayer and meditation can make up for key nutrition lacking in one’s diet. It isn’t a moral failing; it is the way humans evolved.

  29. Ginger says:

    Sally Fallon’s comment about cruel-free animal deaths was not an endorsement of factory-raised meat. She mentioned many times that she only endorses grass-fed, humanely treated meat. So let’s be fair on this point. I wish Kevin would have asked her about raw vs cooked veggies. I know she cooks veggies, but what are her thoughts about the raw vegan’s claims that raw is better because of the live enzymes? How would that compare to her raw lacto-fermented foods? What about going 51% raw, but still eat the Weston Price way? This is how I am currently leaning. Anyway, thanks, Kevin, for these debates. Great food for thought! Ha!

  30. Meggy says:

    I’m confused too!

    If Sally Fallon is correct, in 60 to 70 years all vegans are not going to exist. Only people who follow the principles of the Weston Price Foundation will be alive and healthy. I listened to her and was thinking, OMG, I need to go eat some meat, liver, egg yolks and cod liver oil.

    I have studied nutrition for years and am convinced a mostly plant-based diet is the most healthy. Maybe I’m wrong.

    I do think that Sally uses a lot of emotional rhetoric and sensationalism to promote the animal eating adgenda. And a lot of her information on rotting teeth is hear say. Who knows if it is because of a “vegetarian diet”. I think we all know a vegetarian diet can be extremly unhealthy if not done right. Plus what she said about modern slaughterhouses is absurd.

    I do have her book and will read. But, not sure I’m going to add animal products back into my diet.

  31. Sue says:

    Regarding fish – what Sally was saying is that we have always had mercury in the oceans and a healthy detoxification system in your body is able to deal with this.

    The quick death of animals in factory farming is good to know but doesn’t make up for the suffering. Vegans, vegetarians and even omnivores need to take a stand against this more thoroughly. It is the immediate issue, rather than trying to get everyone to abandon animal foods completely. Sally I believe is also for humanely raised animals. I know a lot of the vegans don’t like the word humanely as they believe we shouldn’t eat animal foods period. People will eat animal products so you need to deal with this in your own minds. Its the individuals choice.

    For the finale you are having Campbell and Gerson close the event with their pre-recorded talks. I think you need to have an omnivore speaker at the finale too as both Campbell and Gerson are anti-animal foods. It kind of biases the whole event. I don’t know what Gerson personally believes but the Gerson program is without animal foods I believe, it used to include liver?

    Anyway, thanks for putting these talks together.

  32. jeani says:

    It’s been a very interesting debate for sure!
    I was a vegetarian for 35 and raised 3 son’s as vegetarians and organics. However I always taught them to respect animal husbandry and that we lived in a time and place to choose what we ate and that was a luxury the masses in the world were not afforded.Most of the world’s population were lucky to just get enough of any food to not starve.
    Humanity would not have survived without animal husbandry.
    Factory farming aside. It was knowledge of those practices that turned me into a vegetarian in the first place.
    40 years later I now eat some chicken,wild salmon…my own eggs,raw milk keifer and organic vegies I have been growing all my life.Although I’ve had various health issues over the years I’ve never been to a doctor for any of them.My self-healing beliefs have always led me to seek out imformation,have the capacity to change and experiment and most importantly never be ridgid or think there is just one perfect diet.
    Off topic from last night is David Wolfe who I find very interesting, knowledgeable and passionate….however I like others wonder if he donates any of his profits to charity to help feed the starving masses or is the guru of superfoods to those who can afford to “mine” the world and eat only the best.
    How could anyone fault a peasant farmer anywhere in the world for chopping off a chicken’s head to feed his family?
    These are just a few of my insites and questions to throw into the mix.
    Thank you kevin for your expanded approach to the many possiblities of healthy eating…namaste

  33. Robin says:

    What I learned from this week: we all want the diet that is healthiest for our bodies to also be the one that is healthiest for our souls and the health of the planet, but it appears we have to make trade-offs. To wit: I keep kosher, so I don’t take krill oil. I believe that the argument for krill oil over fish oil is pretty compelling, but I’m not going to take it because of my religious beliefs. As a human being, I accept that sometimes I will choose less physically healthy options in order to support my spiritual health.

  34. Veronika says:

    Wow, Will Tuttle’s talk was sooooo inspiring. After listening to the debates every night, he brought it back home to me and reminded me why I was drawn to veganism in the first place.

    I was vegetarian for a few years, and I always felt off when purchasing eggs (even pasture raised). When I bought them, and every time I ate them, I felt like something was wrong. But I convinced myself that I needed it for health reasons. I know that’s not the case anymore, and I feel so much happier leaving out eggs and not feeling that friction. I use FitDay.com to calculate all my nutrients to make sure I’m getting enough of everything, and I’m always way over 100%.

    And I’m so glad he described how we would have plenty of land if we all had a plant-based diet! And that’s even without permaculture, biodynamic, and sustainable farming. And think about how much food is WASTED at grocery stores when things aren’t purchased in time, or thrown out at restaurants – there is a ton of food for everyone – all we need to do is become more conscious of our eating habits and how we grow our food.

    And I had no idea about rainforests being cut down for livestock food farms!!! That’s HUGE!

    Also, you can even grow lots of fruits/veggies in the winter time using ground level hoop covers or hoop houses to cover the crops. There are people who grow their own food in their front/back yard even while it’s snowing!

    Check out John Kholer for more info on how to grow your own food: http://www.youtube.com/user/growingyourgreens

    It would be so perfect to follow up the Great Health Debate with interviews of people who can show us the next step in building a sustainable planet, like John Kholer!

  35. anatol says:

    it seems no one seems to be aware of the point that top world scientists presented at the World Preservation Foundation conference last Nov 3 2010… that eating animals and all that goes with it may be a deciding factor in bringing the human species to extinction :

    http://worldpreservationfoundation.org/events.php

    Dr Fuhrman MD spoke at the conference… and he spoke here also… but I guess he just stuck to his expertise on nutrition… Dr Brown makes the point i am alluding to most clearly at the conference( see video at above link )…

    when the world situation is so critical, i feel listening to non-experts like Sally is a complete waste of time; she is neither a MD nor a nutritional scientist… and definitely pointing in the wrong direction… and there are some really serious questions about WAPF being a front for cattle & dairy industries… similar to what we saw with tabacco.. both Dr Fuhrman and John Robbins wrote articles about this… and they are really credible honest people in my POV… and there’s more…

    on the other hand Dr Will’s message of spiritually along with vegetarianism is most important…

    the situation expressed by both top scientists and spiritual leaders, is that in order to avoid extinction we simply have to stop abusing and eating animals… not necessarily attain nutritional excellence right away… that we can do later… of course individually anyone can make their best efforts even now with the knowledge that Dr Fuhrman, Dr Goldhamer, Dr Campbell, Dr. Esselstyn and other have given us

    thanks Kevin for having Dr Tuttle… with so many speakers representing WAPF i was beginning to have some serious questions about…

    oh, here’s a website that is totally devoted to saving planet earth via combination of spirituality, vegetarianism, science, pragmatism, selfless-service, etc etc and is a great resource containg videos and links to many top world experts in all these fields…

    http://suprememastertv.com/

    and for really deep nitty-gritty spirituality

    http://www.mooji.org
    http://www.amma.org
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_q6gZkoceg

    love & light

  36. Cita says:

    “I think one of the biggest challenges for me as an interviewer has been to stay neutral during the program and let my biases aside.

    There have been false statements by both sides throughout the whole program.”

    :-O

    And you have let them pass?!? :-O
    And you think that is fair to the listener?! :-O

    Ok, maybe it is because I am myself a journalist… that is just not how I do my work! I perceive my job is to investigate and dig out all the facts so that the reader has it all on the table.

    Maybe that is why I have been questioning your methods all along this event… :-/

  37. Paul Palmer says:

    Hi Kevin

    As you said, there are no absolute rights or absolute wrongs here. if we are absolutely right we blind ourselves to valid concerns. If the other side is absolutley wrong we will demonize them. I think there are some bad vegan diets. Gandhi failed on the vegan diet. Why? I don’t know, maybe because he didn’t have teeth to chew his food properly, maybe he didn’t eat enough greens or sea vegetables. We don’t know but it should concern us. You asked Sally if people ran into problems because they don’t apply the vegan diet the right way. Her reply was that there is no right way. She also called vegans violent and emotionally unstable (no qualifications added). No doubt it will be revealed in a future study that the great majority of violent criminals are closet vegans. I did read in the East-West Journal that Portugal’s most notorious criminal embraced vegan Macrobiotics and became a model prisoner and later a constructive citizen.

    Ms. Fallon also called vegans mentally deficient (inevitable on such a diet). Should come as a surprise to great thinkers such as Pythagoras, and south and east Asians must be notoriously poor students. Ms. Fallon also said that T. Colin Campbell owes his present good health on the vegan diet to his meat eating upbringing. If so, why did his father die prematurely on the same meat and dairy rich diet? When vegans are healthy and live long, other meat advocates claim that it is because they secretly must have cheated. Without evidence that is just circular logic.

    Studies would confirm that animals fed high protein/high fat meat diets mature and reproduce earlier than those that are not. This seems to be also true in our meat eating culture. But what are the social and economic implications of children making children? What is the relationship between very high levels of testosterone and aggression, or aggression and violent crime? Note that animals fed high protein/high fat also die sooner. Vegans are all dangerously deficient in EPA and DHA? Study by Ailsa Welch et al (University of East Anglia) shows that though vegans do have lower levels than fish eaters the difference is not that great. Caveat being that vegans should get enough omega-3 ALA. I could go on but this is getting too long. Regarding animal slaughter, maybe the pig really does wish he were an Oscar Meyer weiner, but that’s a stretch.

  38. johnson says:

    Animals eat plants, humans eat plants. Why eat animals? Plants are the givers of life. Am I wrong, who knows. I’d say skip the animals and go straight for the nutrient source. Daniel vitalis says we are waying up life with plants, that they are living too. I would say they are alive, but a different structure of life. We don’t have to kill plants to eat from them, and even if we do we can take a branch and plant it. Can’t take an animal leg and plant it. But that’s not really useful or scientific. I’ll have to judge how I feel living off plant matter alone.

  39. Paul Palmer says:

    My bad. Many south and east Asians aren’t vegans. But they do eat a palnt based diet.

  40. Paula F. says:

    Ok for me Tuttle was talking new paradigm and Fallon was talking old paradigm. Tuttle was visionary and yes, idealistic … what’s wrong with that? Fallon’s belief is that this is way it’s been done for thousands of years and biologically it’s unnatural and unhealthy to change it. Same was said for slavery and sexism.

    I don’t believe what she was saying about raising vegan children and how dare she say that vegan woman should not have children. I have to keep mum when I see omnivore women popping about babies — adding to a population explosion that will only intensify these disgusting concentration camps and holocaust of animals. Small “happy meat” farms are not a viable solution to feed the too many people here already. If I have to keep mum, because it’s heresy to question the making of babies, then she should shut her mouth too.

    And who pays her salary … where are the donations to this foundation coming from? I’ve heard it’s from the dairy and meat industry. I don’t trust anything that woman has to say, I don’t think she is very intelligent, and I have only expletives for her.

  41. AmandaS says:

    Re: Mercury in fish

    I’m interested in the research showing that good serum selenium levels protect against mercury. See below:

    The first report on the protective effect of selenium against mercury toxicity appeared in 1967. Since then, numerous studies have shown selenium supplementation counteracts the negative impacts of exposure to mercury, particularly in regard to neurotoxicity, fetotoxicity, and developmental toxicity. The ability of selenium compounds to decrease the toxic action of mercury has been established in many species of mammals, birds, and fish. The detoxifying effect of selenium on mercury toxicity is due to a formation of a biologically inactive complex containing the elements in an equimolar ratio. The complex is unable to pass biological barriers, placenta and choroid plexus and is stored in the liver and the spleen, even in the brain in a non toxic form.

    It is well recognized that mercury and sulphur bind together to form complexes. This binding property is the basis of chelating therapy used as a treatment in cases of acute and chronic mercury poisoning. The complexes between mercury and selenium are less generally known but of much higher affinity. Physiologically, sulphur is far more abundant than selenium, yet because of selenium’s higher affinity, mercury selectively binds with selenium to form insoluble mercury selenides. This interaction has been assumed to be a ‘protective’ effect whereby supplemental selenium complexes the mercury and prevents negative effects in animals fed otherwise toxic amounts of mercury.

    When selenium and mercury are found together, they connect forming a new compound making it difficult for the body to absorb the mercury separately. Scientists have also tagged cysteine in fish binding with mercury also making it safer to eat. When mercury “binds” to selenium or cysteine it is no longer free to “bind” to anything else — like brain or kidney tissue.

    http://www.healthsalon.org/290/cancer-alternative-treatments-selenium-iodine-alpha-lipoic-acid-and-sodium-bicarbonate/

    Health Salon
    Your Source for Cutting Edge Information in Alternative Health Care thats hard to find.

  42. Gail says:

    To begin with – great comments all. I feel like a kindred spirit with Jensey, Robin and Veronika; and to Paul Palmer – your humor (and sarcasm – LOL) is great.

    I did NOT hear Sally Fallon, and I’m guessing I am glad I didn’t. I don’t want to go to bed angry or irritated.
    In the past whenever I was vegetarian or vegan, people sought ME out and poked fun & criticized, yet I never did of their choices.
    I would never say that one does well, or poorly based on this or that (solely) since there are too many factors. MY business is my business and my body is different that others’. I will say that my body at 30 is much different than one at 50, and how it reacts, what it needs and what causes me grief are very different than in previous years. So not only are we different but it changes over time. Just do what feels right for you.
    I loved listening to Will; and no, he did not make me feel guilty for having a pet. I love my animals, and the difference is that they are family members. I don’t ‘own’ them.
    I am FROM CA but live in another state now and the actions & attitudes toward animals here is quite shocking to me. I find the culture very disturbing. At the same time, I was at the grocery store today, and one (heavy) lady in front of me commented that the box of donuts she bought was for her dog. How is that being a good, responsible dog ‘owner’? Made me ill..I probably put more thought into what I feed my animals sometimes than what I give to myself!
    Also, at work, a co-worker proudly proclaimed that he had killed his first deer. I was horrified, and wanted to cry. They called me hyprocrite though that I wanted to taste it. I explained that I never tasted venison and have always wanted to have ONE opportunity; while killing an animal doing me no harm is something I never could do. I simply could NOT be the ONE TO DO THE KILLING. Well, if you had to hunt your own food in order to survive, could you, they asked? I don’t know, but I can tell you this – I know how to sprout; and I have grown my first garden; and I hope to learn to forage – so hopefully, I wouldn’t have to resort to it.
    Do I think animals are there for us to eat? If so, only minimally. I think we humans should eat as much plant based as possible. I have just begun buying organic, grass fed meat from a local farm; eggs, goat yogurt etc.
    It is amazingly different. Due to the cost, I cannot do it often, which is fine. If we continue having large animal farms, it needs to be greatly improved, and greatly reduced and a ‘greater good’ solution that is win-win in effect. I know that the vegetarian way is the solution for the most part, but in order for it to really happen, some sort of interim solution will have to happen first.

  43. Juli says:

    The gladiators could well be the strongest men on earth…they thrived on barley and beans/legumes. The human jaw and teeth and digestive tract are designed to eat plants.

    Dr. John McDougall, MD has done thorough historic and anthropological research into the diets of humans, and have found that all successful civilizations lived on a starch-based diet (potatoes, legumes, whole grains).

    He says that new research shows that things like potatoes are loaded with protein and several hundreds of different phytonutrients (in addition to vitamins and minerals), and that it is now thought that it is allll the phytonutrients that really give the needed nutrition…that the body really needs the whole array, not just vitamins/minerals.

    Dr. McDougall is a wealth of easy-to-understand information and offers a one-hour free video with great slides on his new book to be released soon: The Starch Solution. Highly recommend. Fascinating:

    http://www.drmcdougall.com/video/starch_solution.html

  44. jeani says:

    johnson…check out the SECRET LIFE OF PLANTS written many years back….they hooked lettuce up to monitors …had people go in with them and be kind,water them,touch them…another guy went in and pulled them up….the monitors went crazy….then the same people would go back in the room and when the lettuce puller came in….they reacted without him even touching them..
    yes plants do indeed have conciousness….they bleed,they feel…yet both plants and animals do nourish us and our conciousness,our approach and reverence for that gift of nourishment is the key…
    the native americans are a great example..they did ceremony before the “hunt” and believed that the elk or deer willingly gave its life for them…they blessed every part,had reverence,gave thanks…..as we should all do for whatever we choose to eat..
    great debate…great comments

  45. Sarah Nicholson says:

    I would like to make two comments.

    The first pertains to this argument over Sally’s comments about animals and humane killing etc. I don’t think she said it clearly and it’s been misunderstood. Animals living in inhumane conditions and fed an incorrect diet maybe killed quickly but the food products they provide will be nutritionally unsound. Animals living in the wild eating the correct foods maybe killed slowly by predators but the food that predator eats will be nutritionally superior. The balance with this is obviously not what we have in agricultural industry, but it is what farmers and organisations such as WAPF are trying to achieve, which is animals pastured and fed correctly, killed humanely, producing nutrient-dense foods. The point of WAPF and indeed of many of our speakers here is about nutrition and health. I love the equation I saw somewhere this week
    health = calories / nutrients
    and I assume this to mean the balance of calories and nutrients. And this brings me to my second point.

    All of the speakers and many of the commenters on the blogs focus on the “why?” of what we eat. I think this is the key. I do not think any particular way can be undeniably proved right or wrong in general. A lot of the “why?” given credence here is either spiritual or ecological or whatever, and whilst it is important to consider these things and get the bigger picture, the main issue with health is nutrition.

    Even people eating the SAD way for example have a “why?” which might be one of education (they don’t know better) or economy (they feel trapped in their choices by budget) or locality (food simply not available near them) and so on. We should not moralise, these are real issues for them. Those of us here will mostly be reasonably well educated and capable of logical thought and resourceful to research (and become like Sally, a secondary researcher) and make wise food choices, as well as be able to afford them, as well as have access to them, and so on. But the key is “why?” and if we are making our choices because it’s just what our parents did, or what everyone around us does, this is irresponsible on our part. There are so many factors to take into consideration – be it locality, education, blood type, spiritual understanding, etc. and another thing is what stage of your life journey you are at such as child-bearing years as opposed to ageing years. And in all stages what decisions we made or had made for us earlier which are now impacting on our current health situation.

    I love the comment I saw somewhere about complexity and simplicity. We are complex beings in a complex world but the answer may be as simple as taking the responsibility of the “why?” in our food/health choices.

  46. Kevin Gianni Kevin Gianni says:

    Just some clarification on points here…

    I did not say Sally Fallon said factory farmed meat is OK. I know her work well enough to understand what she stands for. 🙂

    @Chris: This is a good point that I’m going to sit on for a little and probably one of the most mind-bending concepts for me right now: “I have to agree on the local comment. I find it odd that people would prefer to eat algae and fermented rice protein shipped and processed (in plastic)from parts unknown rather than some eggs from a local farm that they can drive to and see first hand.That makes no sense to me whatsoever.”

    @Sam I’m simply stating here that she needs to be clear to the audience here. A bunch of people commented on how insensitive her quote was and I agree – even in the context of the interview. There are a lot of people listening who have never heard Sally before and that statement in context didn’t fair well for her in the public eye.

    @Shirley J: I’d trust them here. They have too much liability if they don’t warn you.

    @Gabriel: Thanks for this, I will send you an email to look over this info!

    @Valerie: “Why is it a goal to decrease the amount of meat eaten?” – I do have some agenda! 😉 The overall evidence I’ve gathered is that the majority of our population can live on more plants than meat and do so extremely healthy. Much of American society eats meat 3 times a day! This is highly unnecessary and leads to diseases of excess. Meats are high in phosphrous and can too much can cause acidic diseases – not limited to osteoporosis and cancers.

    @Cita: Some of the experts don’t have the facts, journalists challenge when they have an agenda. My role here was to be as objective as possible. Obviously, when you have thousands of people listening to an event, they will come up with some pretty good questions that you missed! Also, challenged experts clam up, non-threatened experts can talk themselves out of credibility. 🙂

    Live Awesome!
    Kev

  47. suzymagnolia says:

    No offense, but i just don’t think Sally looks very healthy herself. She looks overweight and doughy. She definitely doesn’t represent the results i am looking for. Dr.Will Tuttle on the other hand does.

  48. Ela Harrison says:

    The difficulty of being impartial: you have done a wonderful job at that, and I really appreciate that you let each speaker have their say.

    Please tell me that comment #20 wasn’t really written by Dr Gabriel Cousens. There are so many mis-spellings, grammatical errors, etc: even the last name of the Madeleys is spelled incorrectly! It detracts from the impact of the point made when it’s so ill-presented.

    On the ‘mighty vegetable oil industry:’ this really is an artifact, and vegetable oils (with the trans fats they bring) are surely one of the greatest health disasters of the 20th century.

    On which note, I wish that someone would address the contention of Ray Peat (raypeat.com) that PUFAs in general are inimical to human health: that we can manufacture all of our own EFAs and would be better off consuming only saturated and monounsaturated fats. If there are no ‘essential’ fatty acids, perhaps that would vindicate the low-fat camp (although my personal experience after many years of very low fat has been that coconut oil is a great help).

    thanks,
    Ela

  49. Sue says:

    In regards to my above comment:
    “For the finale you are having Campbell and Gerson close the event with their pre-recorded talks. I think you need to have an omnivore speaker at the finale too as both Campbell and Gerson are anti-animal foods etc”

    After listening to the Croxton and Adams talk which is on the same night as Campbell etc I’ve changed my mind as both Adams and Croxton are presenting a very balanced view on the subject. I’m still in the middle of Adams and Croxton talk but very impressed with both of them.

  50. Ann H. says:

    Interesting to me that Sally Fallon was the only female in the whole line-up, and she was the one who was most interested in the health of pregnant mothers and children. If our diet cannot sustain a human population over the generations, then it seems that it cannot be the healthiest diet for humanity. I was a vegetarian (vegan for most of that time, and a high percentage of live food for several of those years) for 12 years. My first child was born during those years (although I did feel a need to eat eggs and fish during that time so wasn’t fully veg during pregnancy) and suffered colic, anemia and multiple food sensitivities. I’ve tried us on multiple diets since that time to try to alleviate those issues (including live foods, 80-10-10, etc), but it’s only been the last 6 months, since we’ve really embraced the GAPS diet (a subset of the Nourishing Traditions type diet) that we are seeing positive results with both our children. While on 80-10-10 my teeth and health were deteriorating rapidly, and my blood sugar was anything but stable – I got to the point that I would nearly faint if I hadn’t eaten in a couple of hours. Now, with a high fat diet, my blood sugar is stable for hours and hours. It’s really cool.

  51. Rhonda says:

    Thank you Kevin for putting on this great health debate. If anything, it is making people think more about what they eat.

    I want to thank #10 Clark for providing the good information of the human and herbavore animal tract for comparison. I think that makes a clear statement for those that might still be confused.

    Lastly, Dr. Andrew Weil stated that it is better to eat on the lower rungs of the ladder, a plant based diet for health purposes. I believe he is correct along with Dr. Ornish, John Robbins, Will Tuttle, Dr. McDougal and many others that believe a vegan and or vegetarian diet is the best diet for mankind.

    Kind regards,

  52. Sandra Nicht says:

    many valid points being made here but a few things being missed. No one diet is appropriate for every single human on this planet. I think the biggest point that should be made is that we should be living more in harmony with the environment we are living in. The most successful vegetarian/vegan societies live in more tropical places where there is an abundance of fresh fruit, grain, and vegetables year-round. the meat eating societies tended to live in areas where plant life is NOT in abundance (Alaska, Swiss Alps, etc). Try reading Weston Price’s book, Nutrition and Physical Degengeration; he studied many cultures with wildly divergent diets and ALL those eating their traditional diets were healthy. They only become ill when they began eating refined/processed/”modern” foods. Go ahead and be vegan, or eat meat and drink milk – just do your best to avoid factory farmed/monocropped/genetically modified/highly refined/processed crap and you’ll do just fine (and so will your children).

  53. oreganol says:

    Listening to Sally Fallon would make me more likely to become vegan. She had a few good points but her overall tone and generally weak arguments make the case for meat-eating very weak. Do I want to be like Sally Fallon? Certainly not. Even if you think it’s right to eat animals, surely you can still have some compassion. This woman is totally lacking in compassion.

  54. Paula F. says:

    Regarding plants having feelings — really come on … you don’t stop your neighbor from mowing their lawn. If however, you see your neighbor trying to mow down their dog, their cat, or, you fully bear witness to the smiting out by however means of any other animal, you either are horrified enough to stop it, or, you turn a blind eye because you know deep down inside that there is something wrong with this picture. Young children who have not yet been indoctrinated are horrified to learn of any harm to another creature. The fact that we now have an animal rights movement, or, the mere questioning of “do we have a right …” is evidence that some of us are leading a new stage in human evolution. I believe we are in the eve of our destruction if the masses do not wake up quickly and put an end to this barbarity in our species. I believe that if a person is committed enough their success with a vegan diet will be successful.

    Necessity is the only caveat that makes murder morally excusable.

    I concur with everything Will has to say, except that the word “spiritual” is not in my vocabulary. I wish people would stop using that word because it invites all kinds of bickering about some notion of superiority. It’s simply about bearing witness and owning up to the dirty business of smiting out an animal’s life, what it says about our humanity, or the lack thereof, and recognizing the dark insanity that it is.

  55. HeatherM says:

    On the debate by Will and Sally – Will’s approach seemed to be based on philosophy/spirituality, while Sally’s seemed based on observations plus the research of others.

    I do not believe there is one diet for all mankind,especially at this point in time.

    First of all – there is much to indicate that adherance to your family’s traditional diet (as in at least 3 generations ago and further back in history) is very supportive of health.

    There is also much to support eating a diet based on foods locally produced and in season.

    Problem? Humans migrate.

    Secondly, the eating of degraded foods has resulted in an increasing proportion of the populace with such problems as dysfuntional prostaglandin cycles and unbalanced intestinal micro-organisms.

    For either of these situations, synthesis of essential nutrients from their plant based nutrient ‘parents’ does not happen and in order to attain/maintain health it is neccessary to ingest the bioidentical form.

    An extreme example is the Eskimo, who lacks desaturase 5 and 6 and MUST there obtain omega 3 and omega 6 essential fatty acids from animal foods. Not coincidentally, the Eskimo cannot synthesize vitamin A from betacarotene, nor – in an environment UVb poor – can they synthesize vitamin D3 from sunlight. The fat soluble vitamins must also be sourced from animals. It is likely that the Eskimo gut does not synthesize vitamin B12 either.

    Theirs is an adaption to very extreme conditions.

    On the other hand, a native of the Hawaiian islands – where there is plentiful UVb all year around (and therefore should be plentiful fruits and vegetables)can synthesize vitamin D3 from sunlight, vitamin A from betacarotene etc, and if living on traditional organic foods will certainly get plenty of B12 through the action of intestinal micro-organisms. These natives would suffer on the Eskimo diet, and in a continuously warm climate low omega 3 and 6 foods and high saturated fats would be the logical choice.

    If you are able to opt for a particular way of eating which agrees with you physically, ethically and spiritually you are fortunate indeed.

    But for many, finances and both current health and genetic inheritance are key.

    One thing seems obvious – we need to power down our population. We keep on shooting ourselves in the foot.

    Some of it comes from the attitude that if a little is good, more is better. Years ago Smallpox was a feared spectre – then Cowpox was successfully used to vaccinate against Smallpox. Now our infants may receive 80 vaccinations before college age – some of them against mild childhood illnesses like chickenpox. And each vaccination messes with our immune systems and increases our toxic burden. There is even a vaccine to fight 4 (out of over 100) strains of HPV which is touted as an anticancer vaccine, being given to children- in spite of there being no proof that the ‘benefit’ will last beyond childhood. HPV is a sexually transmitted disease.

    Then there was the discovery of pasteurisation which saved the wine industry…and is now being used on protein sources like dairy foods 🙁

    Our society insulates most of us against the basic truths of where our foods come from. This CANNOT be a good thing.

    Death is a part of the life cycle of almost every living thing. We are so out of touch with this fact that it is treated like an affront and something to be feared and avoided for as long as we possibly can.

    So we rely upon pharmaceuticals to manage the symptoms rather than try to identify the cause of imbalance and address it….and so we (possibly) live longer at the expense of vitality.

    Which is the right diet for me? I am still trying to work that one out. The debates have given me more to consider.
    But I know that I have problems with sugar – so it is not fructarian – and I have MS which is strong indication of a disrupted prostaglandin cycle which would mean I am probalably unable to use non- bioidentical omega 3 and omega 6……so not vegetarian.

  56. Dan Hegerich says:

    Hi Kevin,

    This morning I consumed a raw vegetable juice so in that moment I was a ‘raw vegan’. A couple of hours later I consumed a small bowl of pineapple and kiwi with raw dairy cream so I was then a raw ‘lacto-vegetarian’. At around 1pm I consumed 6oz of fresh raw wild local venision with raw shitake mushrooms, olive oil, kelp, and chili seasonings and plenty of raw butter, so in that moment I was a ‘raw paleo primal carnivore’ Right now I am breathing in slow and deep so I am a ‘breatharian’. In the big picture we are all whole and the whole contains all the individual parts. Throughout my day I experienced my wholeness through food because I played with all the aspects of my humanity with awareness and gratitude. Others play out their favorites and push away or deny their other aspects in some way. As I continue to evolve into being and living with direct access from the source of life then other aspects of old self gently fall away giving rise to more of my true authentic self. And the cycle of life continues…

    Lastly, the more accepting I am of myself and how I choose to live my life the more graciously I am accepting of others and how they choose to live their life.

    Dan Hegerich, 6x Cancer Survivor
    Optimal Natural Health Expert
    Do The C.U.R.E.
    http://www.dothecure.blogspot.com

  57. Philip says:

    THANK YOU KEVIN & ANN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    This series is the best. Its great for broadening your understanding of where the different opinions are and what they are. When used correctly provides a much richer body of research and thought to cultivate choices.

    Thanks Again. Really good stuff.
    Peace…. Philip.

  58. Martin T says:

    Kevin & Sam, re: your questioning why someone would want to consume vegan supplements (protien powders, etc) shipped from far away rather than eating local eggs, keep in mind that:
    1) If more people used vegan protein powders, they would become more common and more available and some could be locally produced -maybe not as locally as an egg from a farm next door, but certainly modern technology can allow protein to be extracted from a range of vegan sources that can be produced relatively locally, or at least domestically, and as clean transportation technology continues to evolve, the impact on the planet will decline; hybrid and battery-operated cars will become more widespread over time.
    2) Eggs might not be a sufficient soure of protein for some people who feel they need more protein and who don’t want to consume a huge amount of eggs (for health reasons or whatever).
    3) Dr Cousens and others argue that eggs are not helpful from a spiritual development standpoint, and some people might resonate with that.

    I’m not saying that eating eggs in moderate quantities is bad (although there are many health experts who feel that anything more eating just a very occassional egg is bad, or suboptimal), but supplementing with something that happens to come from far away isn’t necessarily so bad either – after all, the amount you’re consuming, probably no more than around 20-30 grams per day, is not very expensive to ship, compared to all the other things most people consume (both in terms of food and other things) that need to be shipped great distances. If you’re concerned about that, then you shouldn’t even be eating fruit in winter because the fruit is a lot heavier and bulker than your vegan protein powder, so shipping it probably creates more pollution and burns more energy.

    I agree that we need to be concerned with conserving energy and cutting down on pollution, including reducing pollution that results from transportation, but I’m not sure that eating local eggs instead of vegan foods from further away is the best way to go about it. Just cutting back on meat consumption would be an enormous environmental benefit, given the amount of resources it takes to produce meat, and the fact that cattle are themselves emitting large amounts of greenhouse gases into the air.

  59. Martin T says:

    Sally Fallon was arguing in favor of meat consumption, but in terms of the nutrients that she talked about that we supposedly need to get from animal sources, they are all in eggs and dairy, so it is unclear why she says we need meat. She did mention one thing, arachidonic acid, that she claimed is found only in organ meats and meat fats, but in researching this a bit, it appears that this compound is abundant in eggs as well, not just meat – so even if she is right about deficiencies on a vegan diet, she has failed, in my opinion, to provide a reason why eating meat is necessary.

    She claims that Vitamins A, D, and K, as well as B12, iron and arachidonic acid, are lacking in a vegan diet. But this appears to be dependent on the individual because it appears that many (maybe most?) people actually are able to properly utilize the Vitamin A and K from plant sources, and are able to get arachidonic acid by means of their bodies properly converting it from linoleic acid, and are able to absorb sufficient iron from vegan food sources. So while her arguments may be true for some people, they are certainly not true for everyone, as she makes it sound in her presentation.

    Nevertheless, her arguments may explain why some people are not able to do well on a vegan diet, although from my observation, a lot of people who are on a vegan diet are missing nutrients from their diet that they could probably get on a vegan diet if they made an effort to, so I do believe a lot of people fail on a vegan – or even a vegetarian – diet because they are not doing it right, not because their bodies really need animal-based food, although I also recognized that there are probably also plenty of people who genuinely do need some animal-based food for optimal health and mental functioning.

  60. Kara says:

    I have loved listening each day and reading the variety of comments. One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is a personal account of child-bearing on a high-raw, vegan diet. While I did eat an omnivorous diet with my first pregnancy, that child is now 7 and has never had animal foods. He is taller than average, the quickest runner among his peers, smart, fun-loving, enthusiastic about life, and has never been to the doctor for illness. His mild and infrequent sicknesses have easily resolved in hours to one day. His sister was born after I had been vegan for nearly 7 years. She was conceived on the first try, I had a great gestation, and she was born at home after a mild 3-hour labor weighing 9.6 pounds and 21.5 inches! She is now 2 and the picture of vibrant aliveness (and literally ‘off the charts’ for height). Thankfully, she, too, has never been sick enough to see a doctor. She’s had maybe two fevers which burned out overnight. No sniffles, no earaches — nothing! I am thankful and do not believe that everyone is currently ready to thrive on a vegan diet, but I think it’s important to share the ‘success’ stories to reassure those who feel it’s right for them.

    Also, someone mentioned Sally Fallon’s appearance…I have seen her in person and her skin was rough and blotchy, and her hair was dull and brittle-looking. I tried to ask her questions and she cut me off quickly to tell me her beliefs — not a good listener, and seemingly not someone who can respect the thoughts of others and reflect on new information. I have also seen David Wolfe in person and he is every bit as vibrant as he sounds, with clear smooth skin and bright eyes. He gave plenty of time and energy to all those who wanted to talk with him, including non-veg. While there can be many factors that influence a person’s appearance and demeanor, I do think it’s wise to choose our teachers at least partly based on the results they are getting.

  61. Kara says:

    To add to my previous post…My husband also eats a high-raw vegan diet (and had been for six years at the time of our second conception), and I breastfeed my children full-term (for my son, that meant 5 years; for my daughter it’s 2 years and counting.) Sally Fallon told me in person that I needed to consume at least 1 quart of raw goat milk every day to have nutritious breastmilk…

    Also, Sally said in the interview that she’s never eaten raw liver because the ‘ick-factor’ is too high for her. My understanding is that a true carnivore/omnivore would feel no such repulsion.

  62. Susan E. Roth says:

    Thanks, Kevin!
    You have done an outstanding job of trying to present all the theories, facts and opinions regarding what we eat.
    I will not attempt to “convert” anyone to my way of eating. I will say I have been trying to find the way that give me the best health possble for over 40 years. I was born sick, and have fought illness my whole life. Vegan did not make me better, Macrobiotic helped for a while. Lacto- ovo Vegetarian still was not the answer. By the way, I am a chef and worked serving and making the foods, so I was not doing anything “incorrectly”.

    I, at 58 years of age, finally feel like I have found optimal health. It has been through an approach based mainly on what Sally Fallon presented, although I do well on dairy, I know many people do not. She IS NOT FOR FACTORY FARMING! It is not only inhumane, it also does not provide healthy food.
    For people trying to make your dogs and cats vegetarian. DON’T!!! Soy is already killing your pets, if you feed them commercial foods. IN fact, your dog or cat is already on a grain based diet if you feed them most pet foods. Try and find ones that are grain free. I feed my dog and cat RAW meaty bones, such as chicken wings, and parts. AS well as beef neck bones. I do supplement with a little GRAIN FREE (hard to find) pet food. My dog gets cod liver oil in hers. Six months ago, both my pets I was told, needed to have their teeth “cleaned”. At the same time my sister’s dog died- from his intestines completely screwed up from the soy in the diet. Now that they have been eating the raw meaty bones, their teeth and breath are incredibly clean. No doggy or kitty dentist. If you want to be a vegetarian or vegan, that is fine. But do not try to force your diet on your pet. You will make them sick. If you can’t live with the fact that dogs and cats are meat eaters, then do not have them as your companion animals. If you really love animals, you accept them for what they, and their needs, are.
    Again Kevin, thanks for presenting such a great series. I do not think it will change many people’s minds, but at least people have a better understanding of why other’s make the choice they do. By the way, when I made the choice to change my diet, I got attacked from all sides- the factory farmed, processed food consumers because I was a “food snob”, and even had so called “friends” who were Vegetarian stop speaking to me. I guess they would rather see me 40 pounds heavier and still on 8 medications. Peace and thanks!
    Susan

  63. Dianne says:

    Please go to humanemyth.org, which deconstructs the myth of humane agriculture. I can understand why people want to believe that animals are raised and killed humanely. I wanted to believe this about cage free eggs and cheese, but after research found out that it was not true.
    Also, Nova Animal Intelligence. Is it ethical to eat creatures with feelings and some with intelligence of a 2 year old? We still do not even fully comprehend their world. Yes, some animals in the wild eat others, but does this justify us to do the same? We have choices that they do not.
    Even, humane agriculture is there to make money and has to practice some of the techniques that factory farming does for profit.
    Please consider some of these thoughts and organizations.

  64. Jonathan says:

    Will Tuttle makes some OK points but he lost me when he revealed himself as a 9/11 and JFK “truther”.

  65. Paula F. says:

    Question: What does it mean exactly to say that what our ancestors ate is in our DNA and that we are adversely messing with that DNA by not eating animal products?

    Have scientists really looked at people’s DNA and been able to determine what their ancestor’s ate … or looked at children of vegans who are having problems and they have conclusively proven that it was the diet?

    I’m not buying all this so fast.

    Appreciate any feedback, thanks.

  66. Paula F. says:

    I still want to know … WHAT ABOUT THE ANIMALS? You can’t just talk about health as if the animal is invisible, or a “unit” of production like they are on factory farms, or even on “humane” farms, where they still are units of production. In this 21st century are we still going to insist that they really are our property? People keep talking around and around it with a lot of what I call mental masturbation, justifying that all life forms feed on other life forms … but the fact that we all prefer to be shielded from animal execution, and would not want our children to see it, is very telling to me. We are NOT like the predators in the wild, by virtue of the very fact that we can choose … we are plastic … and there is heavy debate out there now.

    When those of you who support animal consumption can tell me that it will be a proud day when you see your child take the life of an animal then I’ll stop asking the question “what about the animal”.

  67. Chris G says:

    People who are advocating a “middle ground” of “humanely” raised animals to eat are simply maintaining the status quo. Sure some slaves were treated well, but the system as a whole needed to be abolished, as does animal exploitation in all unnecessary forms.

    Weston A. Price Foundation is a joke. She didn’t back anything she said with science and seemed completely opinion. As many of the other speakers noted, pretty much anyone can go plant-based if planned well. There is absolutely NO need to eat animal products in this day and age (nor was there ever really a reason, save for perhaps a brief period of time). Even hunter-gatherers on the most extreme condition (pushed there by civilization) still only eat for the same reasons we do today: because it tastes good and is perhaps convenient. I liked Tuttle’s comparison to rape. Because sometimes if you’re ugly – inside and out – raping someone might make you feel good and may be convenient but that doesn’t make it right.

  68. Sue says:

    Sally Fallon is against Factory Farming.

  69. Space Walk Traveller says:

    What a total disappointment Sally Fallon was. To say that we have always eaten animals and that is what we do is like saying “well we’ve always suppressed women and that is what we do” or “we’ve always kept slaves so that is what we do.” Women’s liberation was about evolving as humans. To say that vegans have to take B12 well let’s not mention all the meat eaters who are deficient and can’t absorb B12 either. The rubbish I hear that no society has ever been vegan, well no society has ever lived how we live today either. What society has live in an environmental cesspit of chemicals and close to 7 billion people on Earth?? None!! To sustain this modern population we have to move away from animal food. I loved what Will said “Think who you are eating”
    If you’ve ever lived with an animal then you would know how individual they are.
    I wonder how many meat eaters could go and kill an animal and rip its intestines out and eat it??? How many would do it in front of your kids???
    Kids love growing and picking vegies not killing animals.
    I can sum Sally Follon up in one word “ugly”

  70. Cita says:

    @Kevin. Oh, I don’t agree! At all! The role of the journalist is to dig out the facts. You don’t need an agenda to do that, and you don’t need to be a threatened by “shut gun journalism” (that I personally dislike a lot!). You are not meant to have an agenda! You are supposed to be objective! And to be that you need to be curious and question! Like a child! “How do you mean?” “What do you mean by that?” “XX claims bla-bla-bla, what is your response to that?” We, as audience want to get as much info as possible – and to see on what ground it is built. And if the ground holds!
    Even if I am into adding some animal protein in my diet – I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to know if the reasons for doing this really holds! So that I’m not changing my diet because of someones argument – that, in reality is just empty words! And that this is something YOU know, but don’t convey to the audience, as you don’t want to “challenge” the expert with something that might – just might – challenge them a bit! You don’t even know this! They might in fact have very good arguments that would build a strong solid case, but we are not given these as you are to polite to be curious and ask the right questions!
    If fact you are clearly NOT objective when you do as you do, as you clearly have an agenda NOT to dig out the truth, but just to present all these views as favorable as possible. This is NOT in service of the audience! This just make people more confused about their choices!

    I don’t care about he audience opinion about this and that! I want to know what the actual expert in fact has found in their actual research! (That’s why their experts, right? That’s why you interview them and not just let the forum talk, right?)
    And it is when you ask _the right_ questions that the experts can talk themselves out of credibility! They won’t do so by themselves, when they are just allowed to rant their usual, familiar rant!

    Well. A for arranging the event. C on journalistic/objective performance. Better luck next time – as I hope there will be one, and that the experts have stomach to go into an actual debate then! 🙂

  71. Rebecca says:

    Sally might have had some good points that had research behind them to back them up, but it was hard for me to take her seriously when she made wacky statements like, “vegetarians should not have children. It’s not fair to the child.” Also her tone was not pleasant to listen to…she sounded angry or defensive or something. Between the wacky statements and harsh tone, I wished she would just stop talking. From the praises I’ve read from followers of the Weston Price stuff, it seems like she was just a poor representative for those ideas.

    When I first heard Will speak, I thought he was just another nutty professor. By the end of his talk, I was wanting to hear more from him. He was making me think from a different perspective, one that resonates with my heart. I have three cats, and I don’t feel bad about that, and I occasionally eat some meat, and I don’t feel bad about that, but I think it is important to explore the fact that we have the resources and ability to cure world hunger NOW, and think about why we aren’t doing that. Sally spoke about animals dying humanely in our slaughterhouses…how humane is a small child starving to death? Or millions of them, for that matter? How humane is it to make a mother choose which child she will feed and let live when she has a limited amount of food?

    How lucky are we to live the way we do, to have the abundance we experience, and that our biggest concern is if we get enough vitamin K from this or that source. We get to choose where we will get our nutrients, while there are countless people who would love to have just something to eat.

    Thanks for the wonderful debate, Kevin! And thanks for making it available for purchase to listen to at my leisure, because I would have missed it!

  72. Deb says:

    This was the first time I’d heard Sally Fallon speak, and after her blatantly nutty comments (vegetarians shouldn’t have children, animals die quick painless deaths)I think it will be the last!

    As for Will Tuttle, I have read his brilliant book, “The World Peace Diet”, and it was a book that truly changed my life. It addressed issues that I’d thought I’d been aware of as someone who’s explored vegan, vegetarian, and raw, as well as “clean” animal foods at various times in the past, but clearly I had NOT been aware of. Dr. Tuttle breaks through to the very depths of our denial, and I challenge anyone to actually read his book and not be changed, no matter what kind of diet they choose to eat afterwards!

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