Maybe You’re Not Getting Enough Protein (Plus, Meat Eating Monks!) : Great Health Debate Night 5 Snack Bites

Friday Feb 11, 2011 | BY |
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annmarie gianni q'ero children peru
Annmarie, Philippa and the Q’ero girls outside of Cuzco, Peru.

Last night’s call featured two of my most favorite practitioners…

For those of you who listened, you had an opportunity to hear two to the best in their respective fields come together on the same call to talk about their vast experience with diet and healing.

Dr. Williams has over 30 years of natural health experience and 40 years of experience working with indigenous people.

Dr. Goldhamer has almost 25 years experience supervising water fasts for healing.

It was a special call that I’m going to break down for you now…

1. True evidence of the polarity of diet.

If you really want to know about something, you have to experience it for yourself.

Dr. J. E. Williams decided in 1965 that in order to understand what indigenous people eat and how they live, he needed to live with them.

Over the last 40 years, he’s spent time with numerous tribes in the Americas and has witnessed more than science can prove.

What’s most evident to him is the polarity of diet among the people he’s lived with – their diets are not the same, yet they have (or in some cases – had) great health.

On last night’s call, Dr. Williams talked about his time with the Siberian Eskimos from the Bering Strait and Q’ero Indians of the Andes Mountains in Peru.

Not surprisingly, these people have completely different diets.

In fact, almost completely opposite.

The Eskimos ate (I emphasize the past tense here) walrus, seal and whale. 90-95% of their diet was from animals.

The Q’ero eat potatoes – and I mean a lot of potatoes. 90-95% of their diet is plant based.

They both are (in the case of the Eskimos – were) incredibly robust, strong and healthy people despite their dietary differences.

Obviously, the diet isn’t the only variable to good health – which I’ve been harping on the last couple of days.

But maybe there are more commonalities in diet than we think, if we consider the inverse…

No salt, no sugar, no soy nuggets, no kale chips, no processed Cheeze-Its or anything else in a box.

Other commonalities outside of diet are many. They are connected to their land, work hard, get plenty of sleep, have low stress, worship the earth and are always on the move.

I feel, in order to live long, we have to embrace all of this – not just a diet dogma.

2. Vegetarians and vegans get plenty of amino acids, but…

I know, the “where do you get your protein” question never goes away.

Dr. Williams mentioned he spent time studying the protein intake of vegetarians and vegans and found that they would sometimes get as much as 3 times the amount of amino acids needed.

Looking at these findings, you would assume that you can get enough protein on a vegetarian or vegan diet.

But, what he also found was that many people studied were unable to assimilate the protein effectively, so no matter how much they took in, the plant protein was not sufficient.

Basically this means – just because you’re eating protein doesn’t mean you can use it.

This doesn’t mean you need to eat meat, it just means you have to look at your digestion as well as protein sources to see if you’re doing the right thing for your long term health.

I, personally, would like to know from Dr. Williams if the creation of new plant protein technology like fermented brown rice protein products would be able to provide enough amino acids to take care of this issue.

It would be interesting to conduct a study to see if nutrition technology, like fermented brown rice protein solves this issue.

Dr. Williams also mentioned vegans and some vegetarians tend to be low in B12, vitamin D, calcium and iron.

3. Low cholesterol is dangerous too.

This is personal for me.

I got my blood tested a few years ago and my cholesterol was 110.

I had read the China Study and saw that many of the Chinese in rural areas has cholesterol around 90-110 so I assumed this was a good number. This was also affirmed by a few raw and vegan health counselors I know.

When I went to Dr. Williams with my blood work, he freaked out. (Which with his calm demeanor is hardly jarring… LOL!)

Anyway, he explained that many of the challenges I was dealing with was directly related with my body being unable to produce steroid hormones – due to cholesterol levels that were too low.

My cholesterol levels are now up again and I feel completely different.

There are two lessons here…

First, get your blood checked if you’re experimenting with any diet.

Two, make sure you get a second and third opinion about anything health related.

4. Meat eating monks?

I love the story Dr. Williams tells about his time with the Buddhist monks – who are known to be “vegetarian.”

Obviously, it’s best to hear him tell it, but I’m going to recount it here.

He was a vegan in China studying at a Buddhist temple.

Each morning the monks would go out and beg for food, then come back and pray. Every day at 11:00 they would eat one meal that would be made with the food they had brought back from the morning.

On this day at 11:00, as the monks assembled for lunch, Dr. Williams was among them.

The plates came out and on them was fish.

Dr. Williams, as a vegan, figured he wasn’t going to eat that day.

His teacher saw this and came over to ask if he was going to eat.

Dr. Williams told him he thought the monks didn’t eat meat or fish and the teacher smiled.

He said, “every morning we go out and beg for food. Today, Buddha has brought us fish and we are thankful.”

5. 100% raw food only diet is tough to get right.

It’s not impossible to do the 100% raw diet, but it’s not easy either.

Dr. Goldhamer has seen his fair share of raw foodists that struggle with their diet.

They either are on a high sugar diet or a high fat diet, from what he sees, and neither tend to work so well.

I think the most important thing he said about the raw food diet is that it’s relatively easy to do and feel good for a few years.

But after 2-3 years, is when most start to show deficiency in some way or another.

I can’t tell you how true this is.

In fact, traveling around the U.S. over the last few years has given me insight that most people do not have.

We’ve met many people who are 1-4 years into raw foods are adamant that this diet is the best for everyone on the planet.

We’ve also met many who started to not feel as good as they did after the first 1-4 years and began to change their diet back to something that resembled a more balanced approach.

On top of that, we’ve met many raw experts who don’t share all their dietary choices publicly, further confusing the issue.

I’m not saying the raw food diet can’t be done. I’m saying you have to be diligent.

Dr. Goldhamer is saying the same thing.

He also said, those who stick with a poorly or even “OK” raw food over time also tend to show signs of emotional volatility and immune suppression.

6. What? No olive oil?

Dr. Goldhamer is adamant about adding and additional oil to the diet.

His stance is that oils are a concentrated fat and relatively low nutrient dense calorie source that are unnecessary for our general health.

This is a traditional natural hygiene approach and does make sense.

On the other side, Dr. Gabriel Cousens says oils can be beneficial for overall health and longevity – including flax and coconut oil (for raising low cholesterol.)

This is not the first time I’ve heard this back and forth and am undecided on what the real truth is.

For a “what’s more natural” approach I tend to lean toward Dr. Goldhammer’s view, but from a “clinical” application side, Dr. Cousens has some valid points.

These days, Annmarie and I do take oil as a supplement in the form of sacha inchi and occasionally krill. I don’t know if this is right or wrong necessarily, but I feel like we’re again being careful to take a small enough amount not to over do it and enough for it to be therapeutic.

7. Water fasting is powerful.

The best way to explain the power of this type of healing protocol is to let someone who’s been healed tell you about it.

While we were at Dr. Goldhamer’s True North Health Center last year, we had an opportunity to meet Christina who was there for a 41 day water fast.

Christina’s story is remarkable and compelling and I want you to watch it to see how amazing the work that Dr. Goldhamer does changes people’s lives.

- Click here to see Part 1

- Click here to see Part 2

Hearing that story gives me the chills.

People truly can heal naturally.

Classic Quote of the Night:

“The way you know your salad is big enough is if when you bring the bowl to the table people react with shock and awe.”

Dr. Alan Goldhamer

**
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Here’s where you can go to get these products at a discount now:

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Live Awesome!
Kev

Kevin Gianni

Kevin Gianni is a health author, activist and blogger. He started seriously researching personal and preventative natural health therapies in 2002 when he was struck with the reality that cancer ran deep in his family and if he didn’t change the way he was living — he might go down that same path. Since then, he’s written and edited 6 books on the subject of natural health, diet and fitness. During this time, he’s constantly been humbled by what experts claim they know and what actually is true. This has led him to experiment with many diets and protocols — including vegan, raw food, fasting, medical treatments and more — to find out what is myth and what really works in the real world.

Kevin has also traveled around the world searching for the best protocols, foods, medicines and clinics around and bringing them to the readers of his blog RenegadeHealth.com — which is one of the most widely read natural health blogs in the world with hundreds of thousands of visitors a month from over 150 countries around the world.

51 COMMENTS ON THIS POST

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  1. Kasey says:

    None of the experts are talking about the difference between fruit, grains, and starchy vegetables. I don’t understand how Dr. Goldhammer can say there is too much sugar in fruit, but potatoes are fine?

    Is it the fructose/glucose ratio?

  2. Dianne says:

    A couple of comments:
    Eskimos have a very high rate of artery plague from high fat intake and possible smoking. Of course, they also do not have a lot choice in what they can eat in order to survive.
    I lived in Asia and most Buddhist temples either practice vegetarianism or their members aspire to this ideal. The Buddha taught in communities and did not cook. He took what was offered from the community, but would not kill. This practice was also being able to teach to the community. The Dalai Lama requested that Buddhists eat vegetarian within the last few years.

  3. Susie says:

    The “truth” about fats and oils. It’s really hard for me to swallow that Dr. Goldhamer’s natural hygiene approach is sustainable over a lifetime. I guess if your body can produce the hormones and warmth and sustained energy that fat provides (without adding fats), you could thrive on his approach. But our bodies change from day to day. Our needs change depending on season and climate and stress levels. We need to learn how to be adaptable in our approach to food. We need to really listen to our bodies and do what works for us, not what an expert tells us. There are so many paths when it comes to food. Your body’s needs will change over time and what you need to put in your body will change.

  4. natalya says:

    I am personally interested in talks about raw vegan diet, not about vegetarian or meat eating diet.To my opinion, Dr. Young’s interview was fascinating load of information.People get harmed not just from eating wrong food, but also from their thoughts and not being connected to the Spirit of God, because we feed not just our muscles and bones, but our souls too and this is much more important. It’s enough to look at the pictures of Dr. Young’s facebook page Young Robert to see the blood of meat eaters to not desire animal products anymore.

  5. Yogi Suzi says:

    This whole debate has had me swinging back and forth wondering if I will add animal products to my diet. I am a vegan who has had long periods of raw veganism over the last 11 years. I am not thriving and have not been for quite some time on the vegan diet. What to do? I found it interesting how mild mannered Dr. Williams was and, in contrast, I (please forgive me Dr. Goldhammer) felt that Dr. Goldhammer was kind of loud in his desire to express his point. Such a frustration he has around people who don’t “get” what he believes: that we need to cut out all animal, salt, sugar, and oil, plus exercise and get to bed early to be healthy. If I were to have guessed from the tone of voice of each Dr. who was using animal foods, I would have said Dr. Goldhammer. I was happy to hear how calm and gentle Dr. Williams was. BUT…I still do not know if I can face the thought of eating animal flesh. I can MUCH MORE EASILY go with the diet that Dr. Goldhammer suggests. I really appreciate the passion that Dr. Goldhammer expressed, I just feel more and more that it is a unique choice and some opinions are presented too strongly. I sign off, more confused than ever and not sure how I will be eating next month or even tomorrow.

    Suzi

  6. Shar says:

    I found Alan Goldhammer’s disposition to be a bit arrogant. He seemed to have an annoyed tone while answering your questions.
    Also, so many cultures have done so well with good quality oils. Frankly, he didn’t exactly look like the picture of health to me..just saying.

  7. Ryan says:

    “On top of that, we’ve met many raw experts who don’t share all their dietary choices publicly, further confusing the issue.”

    Exactly…and I find it pretty unbelievable that some “claim” never taken a b12 supplement or others and that they hardly if ever supplement…you gotta wonder that their more concerned about their expert status…

  8. It is just insane that you all think eating animals and their secretions will make you healthy. Go to Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (pcrm.org) and learn how to eat healthy for life. Dr. Neal Barnard has a 21 Day Kickstart weight loss challenge you can join and he will be on PBS Televison in March with this program. Complex carbs like beans, grains, veggies plus fruits and nuts and seeds give us all the nutrients we need as humans to thrive. Get the info for yourself. Eating aniamls and the secretions that belong to their babies is insane and will promote heart disease, cancer, obesity, and diabetes, etc.!

  9. Butch says:

    1.The question is did Dr. Williams consider raw plant protein or cooked plant protein? that makes a difference in useable protein based on Dr. Graham.

    2. What were the specific blood cholesterol problems you were having? does anyone else have them based on the same diet or an 80/10/10 diet?
    And did you start eating meat to increase your cholesterol and what are the drawbacks of eating meat.

    3. Apparently monks lie.

    4. Dr Graham says oil is all fat and without the rest of its nutrients, i,e, the whole olive, so is unhealthy and oxidized which is cancerous.

    5. water fasting is beneficial. supervised for longer periods is advised.

  10. Karl says:

    In the old days, whenever I went to an allopathic MD (I don’t go anymore)I would always ask after they gave me the prescription etc.. “Now that you have told me what to do … if you were in my circumstance, what would you do?” It was amazing how often the MD would respond with a completely different solution than handed to me. This specifically happened to me when at age 42 (now 63, I had 3 bouts of atrial fib. The heart specialist offered me 3 different drugs for life. I responded with my usual question…his answer “I wouldn’t take any”. The point I am making is that Kevin I think you should in the future before signing off… ask each speaker… “exactly what do you eat”… that would be the most powerful question that could be asked….
    Kevin thanks for all your efforts
    Karl in the tundra of Maine

  11. lucymylove says:

    I am trying to know the truth about the oils-flax, fish etc.
    I, We (my children and I) are hypothyroid and I have read about how this unsaturated oils are very toxic. My Cholesterol and tryglyce. have been very low. also,low blood protein and 10 lbs extra on because the thyroid not working properly..so should we use the flax oil?
    Are there any of you who know JESUS? I know He give us wisdom and balance. Not eating flesh or animal products doesn’t make me a better human..by the way ..Created in His image! One day we will face our Creator.
    Kevin thank you for doing this!

  12. pat says:

    Yes, Kevin, many grandparents are on facebook. I am 71. Some of my peers don’t even have a computer (!) but I know many who are on facebook.

  13. Thanks for the Free e-Book “High Raw” I have read to about chapter 15.

    It is great info – I am very much a hit the ground running person – I went mostly raw 1st week of December. I read and watched a ton of info.

    Your book is so true about info overload and knowing yourself.

    I have supmented without a blood test – kinda of going about in the dark : trail and error. Yet I am going to get blood test and save myself some money.

    That is great wisdom to add a little at a time.

    I am a real gung ho person since December- I bought a Vita-mix, a Omega 8003 juicer, an Exclaibur 3900 Dehydrator.

    I was going to upgrade the carbon block filter to a RO. Yet – I will in the future – part of my goals of WIN ( What is Important Now).

    Yet I think that the wisdom a little at a time as you can is great. ( least I go broke trying.)

    I also added exercise as well to my real food lifestyle in December as well. Sprint Cardio (anaerobic) 3x a week and Strength training and Aerobic exercise.

    I have great access to inexpensive fruits and vegggies, they are not all organic and they are not all the freshest. Yet I buy them and some organic – I think that this is a good transition (plus we garden every year – This year I am doing Square foot Gardening – Thanks to John with Growing your Greens).

    I appreciate your balanced insight. It is defintiely needed. Thanks for all you guys do, and the “High Raw” book is awesome.

  14. Sayward says:

    Kevin, what do you eat these days? How did you raise your cholesterol? Using plants like coconut or using animals? I know you used to be raw vegan, but what are you doing these days?

  15. Chris says:

    The many varieties of potatoes in Peru, South America are verrrrrry different than the potatoes grown here. No comparison.

    You can THRIVE on a raw vegan diet as long as you keep your sugars LOW!!! Killing and eating animals is not the answer to success in your diet if you’re not thriving. . Keep trying, keep researching. . It works and is very successful. There is no cutoff after a certain number of years that now all of a sudden you no longer do well. Ridiculous. Eat a wide variety of plants, nuts, seeds and get the correct fats. Keep your sugars LOW to minimal. Greens are king.

  16. Ela Harrison says:

    Thanks for sharing your sensible reflections once again. You are so blessed to have Dr Williams as your doctor: he sounds like a wonderful human being.

    I’ll share some more thoughts on my blog today too and let you know.

    thanks and blessings,
    Ela

  17. Yogi Suzi says:

    Thank you Chris. I feel inspired to continue veganism with lower sugars and more greens sine reading your post. I am lucky because I have a garden full of kale and collards right now! Joy and Smiles, Suzi

  18. zyxomma says:

    @#10: Good for you! Considering your moniker, I thought you’d like to know what I’ve heard from Dr. Cousens, at a lecture/meditation he gave at a NY yoga studio:

    “Don’t eat meat and do yoga! Don’t smoke cigarettes and do yoga! They’re incompatible. If that’s what you eat, find another type of exercise.”

    (Of course, I paraphrased, since I wasn’t recording at the time.)

  19. marc says:

    I concur with what kevin said, after a couple of years, people on raw/raw veganism start to exhibit deficiencies. I personally experienced this. I believe these diets are great for cleansing (short term), but I don’t feel I can thrive off of them long term. I think what’s critical is knowing what your ancestors thrived on and returning to a whole food lifestyle.

    The China Diet?? I’ve read that it was written based on flawed research/data.

  20. R.E. says:

    @YOGI SUZI

    I was the same. MY advice is to start with Goats yoghurt. Did WONDERS for me. And if you only incorporate that to start off with, don’t limit yourself as to how much you consume.

    For me as soon as I had a taste (after feeling like shit on raw vegan diet after 2 years) was to go RAVENOUS on it. I couldn’t stop! MY cholesterol was also dangerously low so I think my body was just loving the fat and also the probiotic action.

    From there, the next easiest thing is obviously goats cheese and goats kefir.

    Also if you dont want to eat meat yet eggs are the best thing. I had the same ravenous reaction to them as well.

    My advice is just do it. I was intellectualising for EVER and was just not going to do it until I have solid proof it was a good thing to do. Problem is, I needed to actually EXPERIENCE eating it to see what my body’s higher wisdom had to say.

  21. R.E. says:

    @CHRIS

    I’m sorry, I think thats just such a silly thing to say.

    What do you say to the people who have severe deficiencies like I did?

    “Oh sorry! You’re not doing it right! NEver mind those deficiencies, keep doing raw vegan until you find an answer!”

    I could hardly get out of bed!!!!!!!!!

    And I was supposed to keep searching for some exotic superfood that would cure me of my ills? I dont have enough money for that! I was already eating all organic food and working 7 days a week so that I could support my eating habits.

    I think thats insane to suggest people should just grin and bear the deficiencies

  22. GlyCop Co-op says:

    A mystery and riddle: There is one plant on earth that can supply all of the above. It alone can heal, provide fuel, fodder and clothing. The leaves are edible, the buds are medicine and the seeds are food. In fact, the entire plant is food if harvested properly. The root of the plant is a delicacy and the entire plant can provide all the needs of a peculiar people. What plant is it?

    God created it to provide all your needs so that you could enjoy the rest of the garden.

  23. Kevin Greer says:

    I think the debate over animal vs. plan protein quality may be a bit of a red hearing, and the real issue may have more to do with Vitamin A quality. Vitamin A is needed to utilize protein and 48% of the population lacks the ability to effectively convert beta-carotene from plants into real Vitamin A. Could it be that vegetarian proteins would be just fine if consumed with sufficient quantities of Vitamin A from eggs, dairy, and animal fats? Animal fats and animal meats are almost always removed from the diet at the same time, so it would be easy to misattribute the reason for the poor protein assimilation to a poorer protein quality rather than the lack of Vitamin A. In the end, if you’re a vegetarian, the result is pretty much the same.

  24. Suzi…Chris told you what you wanted to hear-are you truly satisfied with where your diet has brought you? I never thought I’d go back to animal products but once I did it was night and day. Be honest with yourself and don’t let emotions of others cloud your path. I hope whatever you do, you’ll be thriving again soon. I’m kicking myself for being such an idealistic and dogmatic vegan for 6 years…best of luck sister :)

    raw kale and other brassicas can be detrimental to your thryroid if taken excessively – look for more wild plants if you can.

    Much support! Good luck!!

  25. nik says:

    “People get harmed not just from eating wrong food, but also from their thoughts and not being connected to the Spirit of God, because we feed not just our muscles and bones, but our souls too and this is much more important.”

    everyone is connected to god weather you like their gods or not. We cant think our god is better than thiers.

    I have seen the video on waterfasting. i think this is so upper class. Rebel aggainst it. This is bad. I like things we can do at home. Blood text, expensive supplements, expensive retreates, superfoods. The line is drawn between poor and rich.

    It makes me angry. Nice that a woman get her headache away, i dont feel she is so happy. its amazing how her skin looks. honestly she looks really out of nutrients. I think this fastings harms more than it help. Kevin and some other people are nice guys. There are to much marketing people.

    simplefy this health debate. i wish their would be experts which are more on the ground. in the internet are thousand of experts herbalist. And they are much more grounded and thier theories are much more simple and less expensive. more connected to live. i dont wanna be so rich i like simple life. So please kevin make a change and report more on the simple life instead on this upper class health exoerts.

    Thank you for your effort. Its a great mix of people.

    i just mention why are the most expert have white skin excepts one, who has black skin? Why is no disabled excpert under them? Why only two woman out of more than ten? Why no native american? Why none of this Eskimos or Inuit you talking about? Or other indegenous health experts by them self? I know you have a clever answer to this and a answer from the heart. I like both answers and thank you for you care for the world.

    I realy would like to hear more grassroot health people this guys are for me to upper class. Still its amazing. Iam looking forward to mark siison and the raw foodist tonight.

    i would like to hear more grounded people. i met somuch people in my life who have wise health knowledge give this health expert the way to the exit and lead them to the door. We need people in our community who care about communal natural health. not this higher upper class people who makes us poor.

    Its interesting. Who some said they report on an experiment. Maybe it works maybe not.

    If we would run a bit fancy.

  26. I AM NEW AT FOLLOWING THIS WAY OF LIFE. BUT IF HUMANS WERE ANIMALS SOME OF USE WOULD MEAT EATERS AND OTHER WOULD BE VEGITARIANS JUST LIKE THE ANIMAL KINGDOM. bUT WITH THE FOOD INDUSTRY LIKE THE MEAT INDUSTRY IT IS ABOUT THE MONEY NOT NUTRITION. WHO WANTS TO GO BACK AND DO ALL THE WORK ARE GRAND PARENTS USE TO DO, NOT ME SO EAT AS HEALTHY AS YOU CANB BELIEVE THE FOOD IS GOOD FOR YOU AND DO HAVE BLOOD WORK UPS TO MAKE SURE. NO STRESS IN THAT!!

  27. D says:

    Of all people who feel they don’t “thrive” after some yrs on the raw vegan it is most likely the fact of mixing their fruits with their fats. It won’t work on a equal amount of fruit sugar and fat calories and especially if eaten simultaneously.

    Also, is the insulin level spiked or not. If it is then that is the reason not the fruit or sugar itself. All people who speak against fruit speak as if fruit is synonomous with sugar. Where is any study or research separating raw fresh ripe fruit intake as opposed to any other form of equal sugar intake??? I have never heard of that and so nobody actually knows that hi-fruit is bad. It’s all extrapolation from effects of refined sugar.

  28. nik says:

    “…@#10: Good for you! Considering your moniker, I thought you’d like to know what I’ve heard from Dr. Cousens, at a lecture/meditation he gave at a NY yoga studio:

    “Don’t eat meat and do yoga! Don’t smoke cigarettes and do yoga! They’re incompatible. If that’s what you eat, find another type of exercise.”

    (Of course, I paraphrased, since I wasn’t recording at the time.) …”

    Some reaction on this phrase
    http://paleohacks.com/questions/22751/meat-eating-and-yoga#axzz1Dg6ig4jz

  29. Sylvia says:

    Well it’s been an interesting “journey” so far listening and reading about the right type of diet/life style. My favorite up to last lecture was Donna Gates because of her approach and her “calmness”. I’ve noticed that the doctors/experts who treat people and who see those people heal and thrive (at least for some time) on the approach tend to be (like Kevin mentioned) “my way or highway” sort of kind of way?. And like somebody who mentioned here I too felt that Dr. Goldhammer was kind of pushy and sort of all over the place- lol. Just because people heal from diseases when they use one approach it doesn’t mean that they will thrive on it for the rest of their lives. I also wonder if Dr. Goldhammer’s approach would work for long time mostly raw vegan person who is not thriving anymore (I don’t remember him saying anything about helping those kind of people). It’s obvious that a person who comes from cheeseburger and fries type of diet into a “clean” diet their health will improve.

    I’m not a doctor (I’m just beginning to study nutritional science) but I know that you can’t be guessing what’s wrong with you and trying every super food and every approach everybody recommends and hoping that will help. Get your blood work done and other necessary test and then spend your money on what your body really needs. Just think about it…instead of wasting all that money on super foods/supplements that you don’t need you can get your tests done and you won’t have to be second guessing yourself…what a relieve right?!

    Last but not least I just want to say THANK YOU Kevin for all the wonderful work you’re doing. This is really great …and almost always after listening each lecture (for some reason) I get a green smoothie craving :)…one more benefit from listening- HA!

  30. David Klappstein says:

    Kevin;

    Just wanted to say, that these two gentlemen are worth the entire series—–they really put things into perspective. They provide strong observational and clinical evidence for what they say. And if they say different things—–remember the words of the American poet Walt Witman who said in blades of grass “Do I contradict myself?—-then I contradict myself—-life is full of contradictions” Well done, Kevin.
    Just a couple of points–it is not clear to me why vegans should have trouble getting enough protein. Would they have the same problem if they also ate meat? Are we dealing with a general digestive problem of something more specific about the actual diets of these people, which was never explained. I would be careful not to draw too many conclusions from this. Remember—the most protein you will ever need in your life is when you are born and begin life. Mother’s milk is only about 5-6 percent protein, and you need considerably less than that when you are mature, usually half that. In spite of what these fellows said–you really only need about 3-5% protein which is very small, and how could you not get that with most reasonable diets. I find it difficult to believe that these people had even reasonable diets. And also no matter if the protein is a complete one(like meat) or not , the body will break it down first into the constituent parts and then reconstitute it into the protein units that the body actually needs, so that there is really no advantage to the myth of complete protein, it actually requires more energy, and more trypsin and chimotrypsin(meat protein enzymes) from the pancreas, and these are the same ones used to strip protein coatings from cancer cells—-an obvious link to the meat and cancer problem.
    Outside of that——wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Dave

  31. Susan Laing says:

    I love the points that are being brought up here Kevin! Great debates! Thank you . I know a raw vegan myself I have been B12 deficient even though my blood test showed ok levels but I was always craving red meat and eggs. So I started to take sublingual B12 ~ Methylcobalamin 15mg 1 x a day by AOR. Then I upped to 2, then 3, then 4 ….And the results have been amazing! My concentration is loads better, less restless, sleeping hugely better and my energy is returning to normal! I had CFS and always fought fatigue in some form even after eating raw and doing Ashtanga Yoga. But most of all my nervous system feels less wired! I still try fish now and again but I revert back to vegan as my body seems to like this just now. I like body WISDOM not mind ideas of what we should eat. Our health is about using our wisdom which includes things like using less stress, bonding with others with love and respect and compassion to the planet ie living in harmony. Thats why I am so happy to hear all that Ive heard ! Thanks again Kevin you have done a fab job putting this together(;

  32. Anna says:

    I don’t think that there is any such thing as a ‘one-size-fits-all’ diet. Eskimos will NOT thrive on the same diet as a native Peruvian Indian, and vice-versa. I was a vegetarian, then a vegan. I ate way too many carbs and sweets for my constitution. I went to raw, and did a LOT of green smoothies (with cold processed green veggies- cabbage, kale, broccoli, wheatgrass, etc.) and raw salads. Still felt like crap. Didn’t understand why. Then I was diagnosed with Candida (must go on a LOW glycemic diet-no dried fruits, nothing sweet except xylitol, stevia & a litle manuka honey) AND Hypoglycemia. Turns out my fave foods- strawberries, millet,raw/ fermented cabbage, broccoli, kale and other cruciferous veggies were suppressing my thyroid. Yikes! No wonder I had so much fatigue (could sleep 14 hrs a day), irregular periods, grumpiness, slow hair growth, digestion issues, etc. Now I cook 50% of my food and only eat non-cruciferous veggies raw (pea sprouts, purslane, alfalfa sprouts, etc.). I cook or stir fry the bean sprouts. I also added small amounts of organic meat (am allergic to eggs, otherwise would have done that) to my diet. We might be better off getting tested regularly for nutrient deficiencies, varying our diet in terms of the fruits, nuts, seeds, veggies, grains, and organic meats we eat (to avoid food allergens and get a wide spectrum of nutrients), get tested for and avoid allergens, avoid processed foods and sweeteners, eat some cooked foods, some fermented foods and drink filtered or spring water. If you are on a diet that is not working for you- change it. Don’t get wedded to a rigid philosophy.

  33. sharon says:

    I am vegan for ethical/humane reasons. It is an easy choice to NOT take part in the animal abuse and suffering that is involved in getting meat on a plate.

    In the past when I would try and promote a plant-based diet for humane reasons, I would meet resistance. So, I then took the route of focusing on the environmental and health issues of eating meat. I truly believe that meat, dairy and other animal products are not healthy (and I still believe that, especially since there are no healing centers that use meat in their diets).

    However, after listening to some of the speakers here, I see that many knowledgeable people believe that meat is a necessary ingredient for a healthy diet. So, it makes me insecure to take a solid stance now about what is the healthiest diet.

    I guess the only truth I can end up with after this debate, is that for me, since I could never eat an animal, luckily I don’t have to. Thank goodness for Cousens and Wolfe and others who have researched what constitutes a healthy diet and can show us that there is a way to survive and thrive if we choose not to be a part of the suffering that is involved in eating animals.

    All of your “debaters” are aiming for health and longevity. And yes, I wish I could live long enough to see the last slaughterhouse close and human consciousness rise to acknowledging the oneness of all living beings. I want to see all animals have the freedom to live their lives for their own sake and not for the use of humans

    I’m also taking away from these debates the “goes without saying” issues that everyone here agrees on, like… eat fresh, local and organic, no processed food, lots of vegetables, minimize grains and sugar, etc.

    You’ve done a great job, Kevin. Thanks for doing all the work.

  34. sharon says:

    “I, personally, would like to know from Dr. Williams if the creation of new plant protein technology like fermented brown rice protein products would be able to provide enough amino acids to take care of this issue.”

    I, too, would like you to find this out, Kevin, because I take the protein powder that you mention. Also, there is Donna Gates’ Potent Proteins which she claims is very assimilable. Both of these products are expensive, so if they’re just not being digested, it would be good to know.
    BTW, when you talk of testing to find out what you need, what test tells one how much protein they need and if they are getting the proper amount. Thanks.

  35. SarahJW says:

    I think that the people watching these debates need to understand that this is a “””””HEALTH”””” debate, therefore NOT an “ETHICS” debate.
    We are talking about health not about the ‘feelings’ of animals. I take great pride in supporting local, organic free range chickens and thier eggs and grass-fed, organic cows! Free ranging and organic meats and fowl are great for us, in moderate amounts, just ask EVERY GENERATION BEFORE YOU!!!!

  36. anatol says:

    i agree Goldhamer was passionate and simply talks fast to give us a lot of the best info available in a brief hour.

    I am 71 and have been a Vegan for 40 years; yes it is sustainable.

    I have also done water fasting several times for about a week; my one regret is that I haven’t done at least 30 days when i was younger. Dr Joel Fuhrman MD fasted for 46 days to recover from a sports injury when he was 20yo and an Olympic hopeful; glad he decide to become MD specializing in fasting and nutritional healing.

    For the last 9 years my wife and I have been following Dr Fuhrman’s Nutritarian diet based on an Einstein type equation[ health = nutrients/calories ] which basically tells us which foods provide the maximum nutrients per calorie? GREENS !

    Dr Goldhamer’s and Dr Fuhrman’s approach to diet is basically the same and which i consider to be the most common sense, practical, and the best honest science.

    OH! recently, my wife and i also added green juicing( greens, carrots, apples etc ) after being inspired by the documentary( coming out in April ) http://www.fatsickandnearlydead.com which is very entertaining, informative and extremely inspiring ! check it out!

    And this green juicing with other veggies and apples and ginger and garlic or onions somehow helps us keep warmer in winter than without juicing.

  37. Paul says:

    The almost all meat diet of Eskimo’s may help them to be strong and vigorous- but it will not allow them to reach a normal life span. Most of them are dead by age sixty, they often suffer from early senility and often have hemorrhages.The same could be said of the Masai in Kenya who traditionally ate large amounts of meat. They have the lowest life expectancy of any people in the world.

  38. Trevor Baret says:

    In a previous blog post, Kevin asked why some vegans were so angry and mean -
    http://renegadehealth.com/blog/2011/01/25/why-are-some-vegans-so-angry-and-mean/#comments

    I am sure that Lindavegan would be most offended by such a question…

    Let’s stress here that Kevin asked why SOME vegans were so, not all…

    Now Lindavegan demonstrated Kevin’s point by accusing the vast majority of the world’s population of being insane…

    In comment #8, she says -
    “Eating aniamls and the secretions that belong to their babies is insane and will promote heart disease, cancer, obesity, and diabetes, etc.!”

    Is she seriously suggesting that Vegans are immune to these conditions?

    I am 57 and have been omnivorous all my life. I am fitter, stronger and healthier when the meat content of my diet is higher. My blood chemistry, tested in both conservative and alternative labs, shows me to be extremely healthy.

    I am not angry or mean, and I am far more forgiving than any Vegan or Vegetarian I have ever known personally (and there have been many).

    Although I have good reason to be angry when people cal me insane simply because of my food choices, but I choose a more peaceful way of life. I hope that you might also learn a peaceful way in the future.

    Lindavegan – it is time for you to stop being so angry, accept that others have a legitimate and different viewpoint, and that Vegans also suffer from all of the conditions that you mention.

    It seems that SOME vegans really are so angry and mean…

  39. Mila Ilina says:

    Dr J.E. Williams was probably my favorite interview so far.. beautifully puts everything into perspective! his experience with indigenous cultures is very admirable, and i loved his ability to leave ALL dogma aside ;-) does he have any books out?

    Mila

  40. Mila Ilina says:

    p.s. Annmarie looks like she’s one of the tribe members! Lol.

  41. Amy says:

    I love the classic quote of the night! I have totally gotten those looks when I make a salad for myself! lol!

  42. oreganol says:

    He also said, those who stick with a poorly or even “OK” raw food over time also tend to show signs of emotional volatility and immune suppression.

    Maybe this explains why some people on the more extreme diets aren’t able to hold a rational debate. Being emotionally stable is a sign of good health. Dr Williams comes across as being being very emotionally stable. I would rather take advice from someone like Dr Williams that someone who rants that their way is the only way and lets their emotions get the better of them.

  43. Gini says:

    Yes, Butch (#9) I know several people who have hosted Tibetan monks when they come to the US. I was crushed when they told me the monks favorite place to eat is McDonalds. And they aren’t eating the salad.

  44. Lorraine says:

    I love your speakers but I wish someone would tell me how to reduce my cholesterol and not increase it. I have struggeled with this for years and nothing seems to work. Maybe I will try the water fast followed by a strict vegan diet????????

  45. Silvie says:

    Right, this is a health debate. With the focus to become healthy, happy and emotional grounded people! I have been on the health journey since the age of 11, when I experienced a live changing event, after which I never ate animals again. I have had always a desire and a quest to find the one diet where we humans could live a long live full of joy and happiness and without the slow and gruesome decent disease brings us. This after many stints in different diets, I came 10 years ago to the raw vegan diet. I have experienced many health crisis and not only on that diet but was fortunate enough to have had fantastic teachers like some of the speakers on the health debate. I have long left any judgement behind of people who eat meat or import some super duper whatever from the other side of the world without consideration of the environmental impact.
    What I did come to understand firmly: There is no such thing as ONE TRUTH, no matter how much backing from research or cancer cure hype it comes from. If we look to much at an isolated concept or principle, we risk to loose the bigger picture.
    Today, awareness intuition and trust in my own somatic intelligence are key because I understand that what my body needed yesterday is seldom what he needs today. Many thanks to you Kevin and Annamarie for being such crusaders!

  46. nik says:

    Hello Kev Hello Annemarie,

    This is a very actual interview with Ramiel Nagel he started on the work of Western Price then moved forward.

    Got good results consultant with different people get good testimonals.
    Maybe you do a calm well thought interview with him.

    http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/2276/ramiel-nagel-episode/

    Or make a blog entry on this. Frederic Patenaude and David Wolfe both have section and a voice to teeth remenerialisation. Tommorow is Sally Fallon.

    Nicole Artesian also speak on teeth, you have done also a video on teeth, i was very unclear for me. Maybe you can put a own teeth, teeth remineralisation blog or video. Calm with clear understandable voice. Sometimes iam very sorry, cause your voice is the most slang american ebglish accent. Please speak clear or more english accent.

    I would love if you would make a hinterview with him. There is another guy i suggest you doing interviews.

    Thank you for the debate.

  47. nik says:

    For me a 40days water fast is a interesting view and point. It still has to be more figured out to do it at home. I think it needs the right surrounding and environment.

    I think you have to be with community, have some trustful advice. Have non stress athmosphere. Go leading time to go in the fast. A good fast break. And by the way her headache is away.

    Its is also important and i couldnt understand how this woman built now up her new diet. So its is actually 40 days fast. With preperation and the new diet after it is maybe two weeks at leat preperations, than following by fourty days water fast, than coming after at least two weeks new diet. This has to be figured out.

    It seem to be more complicated. Maybe it is more easy. I have seen people who get totally damged through regulary fasting. So i didint do eat for long and only very cautious? I think it can be difficult. In a healing center it is something different than at home, while you parrallel working stressful.

  48. Taya says:

    With all the conflicting opinions in this debate. I was glad to hear someone with a little fire in their voice. Speaking about Dr. Goldhamer. As a meat lover I was really looking for an excuse to incorporate meat back into my diet. But nothing that I was hearing made any cense. The only thing that would lead me back to meat would be vitamin B12. Now that we have the ability to supplement with B12 that part of the debate is no longer a concern. The other part is that our ancestors were hunter gatherers that ate meat. And with that I agree. But we will never be what we once were. Our ancestors didn’t have to deal with the toxic load that has been placed on us. Even the most secluded organic grass fed animals are 10x’s more toxic then what their ancestors were.

  49. I do not believe in consuming as much fruit as
    Fred consumes, or Dr. Graham. The human body
    requires balance; it is too much fructose and
    will promote numerous symptoms eventually.

  50. madame wolfe says:

    Here’s what I’ve learned so far – most of those replying are still in the fanatic phase of study, understanding and listening. So far, Mercola’s approach in accessing one’s metabolic typing is the most logical and pragmatic approach of deciding what to try out in terms of diet and lifestyle.

    Bringing in one’s personal experience with religion (and one respondent went so far to use the blog to bring people to Jesus) is so off putting. Kudos to the respondents who simply recognize that living a life of spiritual qualities, i.e. kindness, generosity and Tolerance, etc.) is the point.

    As for HHDL’s recommending a vegetarian diet. I am a student of his and follow his public pronouncements closely. I believe what he said is that vegetarian lifestyle is a good choice. He tried it and became quite ill and now continues with his traditional diet of meat. Never does HHDL make public pronouncements of what one should or not do in terms of work, diet, etc. Tibetans are a culture of meat and grain (mainly barley). The lamas in Westernized cultures are now experiencing diseases they never had when in Tibet.

    Kudos to Kevin and the very few respondents who support tolerance, non-prothlezing in learning and listening. You are a breath of fresh air in the quire-mire of judgmental extremist who insist on their POV is indeed the one size that fits all.

  51. Bethany says:

    I didn’t get a chance to listen to all of the sessions, but my question is about meat so I think it applies. Did any of the experts talk about meat that is kosher vs. meat that isn’t? I mean, is it possible that the biggest reason meat is so toxic is because the blood of the animal has not been removed?

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