Susan Schenck Explains Generational Studies Done on the Vegan Diet (Part 4) : The Renegade Health Show Episode #653

Thursday Sep 9 | BY |
| Comments (103)

Susan Schenck’s mentor recently has been Dr. Stanley Bass…

Dr. Bass has been studying diet for decades (he’s 92 now!).

Dr. Bass has done some interesting studies on the vegan diet and how it effects generations of offspring. In this episode, Susan explains Dr. Bass’ work and more.

Take a look…

Your question of the day: Do you think that because this study is done with mice that’s it’s valid?

Click here, scroll down to the bottom of the page and leave your comments now!

If you want a copy of “The Live Food Factor” or want to be notified when her new book is out, please email her here: livefoodfactor [at] yahoo [dot] com

Live Awesome!
Kev

Kevin Gianni

Kevin Gianni is a health author, activist and blogger. He started seriously researching personal and preventative natural health therapies in 2002 when he was struck with the reality that cancer ran deep in his family and if he didn’t change the way he was living — he might go down that same path. Since then, he’s written and edited 6 books on the subject of natural health, diet and fitness. During this time, he’s constantly been humbled by what experts claim they know and what actually is true. This has led him to experiment with many diets and protocols — including vegan, raw food, fasting, medical treatments and more — to find out what is myth and what really works in the real world.

Kevin has also traveled around the world searching for the best protocols, foods, medicines and clinics around and bringing them to the readers of his blog RenegadeHealth.com — which is one of the most widely read natural health blogs in the world with hundreds of thousands of visitors a month from over 150 countries around the world.

103 COMMENTS ON THIS POST

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  1. So whenever I get angry or show any kind of emotion, that’s because I’m a vegan?
    Oh, that’s good to know. That’s even a better excuse than being drunk.

    “I’m sorry for the way I behaved last night honey. But you know, I was so vegan, I just couldn’t control myself.”

    Susan, if you want people to respect your opinions then you should perhaps show a bit more respect towards others. Just a suggestion.

  2. Beth Mouser says:

    I commend her honesty. What about the China Study? Even small amounts of meat caused cancer rates to rise. I have decided to eat mainly fish (3x/week), and chicken 1/x week and red meat 2x/month (for holidays). I worry about meat causing cancer per the China study. Beth

  3. Joe says:

    Health-food is raw, not vegan.

    Lets use the fire for the dance of life!

    Love you … all!

    😮

  4. Joe says:

    Fruitarians that lost teeth,
    they were in a citrus mono-diet for years(highly acidic).

    That’s looks balanced diet?

  5. Nikki K says:

    OMG !

    So now if anybody contests anything Susan says with any PASSION, she sees them as having BRAIN DAMAGE from not eating Meat ?!?!

    GIVE ME A BREAK !!!

    GOSH…. If you can’t handle PASSION, Susan,
    don’t travel to Brazil. Last I heard, most eat Meat and they’re pretty PASSIONATE there !

    Hmmm….Makes me wonder if maybe some folks don’t want to endorse Susan’s Book for more reasons than just her endorsement of Cacao.

    The fact that Susan didn’t try to transition to animal products by first trying to add just Dairy and Eggs to her diet in order to get her B-12 and Vit D before making the EXTREME leap to eating Killed animals FLESH (ie. Meat) totally befuddles me.

    But then I don’t eat Meat, so I guess THAT’s the reason I’m confused.

    Makes me wonder how easily Susan might have been brainwashed by the Weston A. Price folks in her EXTREME diet turnaround. After all, Susan had been on a Vegan diet for a long time before her decision and could have had Brain DAMAGE and impaired thinking processes (according to her own characterization of NON-Meat eaters) at the time of her diet change decision.

    Don’t cha think ?!?
    Or are you a Vegan and can’t think for yourself because you’re Brain Damaged ? (LOL!)

    GOD BLESS US ALL !

    PRAY FOR & IMAGINE PEACE

  6. Lori says:

    I think you have to follow what your body tolerates. Back when the Atkins was popular people were piling fatty meats into their bodies, all the butter they wanted and noone was criticizing them for eating meat. Now we have the opposite effect of people living on nothing but veggies and fruits and now we are getting the same effect of finding out it is not healthy either. Balance of all foods is what is needed. People say to go back to the way we ate in Biblical times. BUT they ate meat. Most were shepards as a job. What did they look after, mostly goats from my understanding,,,why goats,,did they use the milk or eat the meat or both? They put the work into them for some reason, not just to walk around with them all day and then not use them! Also Jesus cast out the nets and filled them with fish for the hungry people…so i dont’ see any vegans years ago. Also they had no “grain harvested” crops. So think about what is “balance” in your diet.

  7. Chris says:

    Not exactly the answer to your question.. but I don’t think anything she says has validity. Her ideas will not consume another moment of my precious time.

    Chris

  8. bob says:

    Best to “go with your gut” in more ways than one; what we eat and how it makes us feel. Returning to our intuitive selves… Balance this with pocketbook, ethics, grace, health and kindness to one another. “These are a few of my favorite things.” la la 🙂

  9. Stephanie says:

    Of course they were valid. FOR MICE!

    I will be interested to see, Kevin, how your nutrition studies affect how you present your material on the show as far as the individualization of nutritional needs. Again, perhaps I’m curious to read about this person’s experience. However, I am wary of broad statements like “People’s lives are at stake!” This implies she has a one-size-fits-all answer and will save us with MEAT! Gotta say, I am less curious now.

    What about doing generational studies with Seventh Day Adventists? Just throwing it out there. I believe they eat a primarily vegan diet. And they’re, y’know, human.

  10. I find it interesting that she has come up with these new ideas which are contrary to her first voluminous book. I don’t mean to sound negative,but honestly, listening to her,she sounds flaky and flighty. She can’t remember certain names and titles, even though now she’s eating “brain food”. I have her “Live Food Factor” book, but after hearing her live interviews, I find that she lacks credibility with me now. Sorry, just being honest here.

    I have always followed a diet which aligns with what feels best in my body: mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically and ethically. For me, that is eating a raw vegan diet.

  11. Amy says:

    I will not be buying her book. I wish I hadn’t bought the first one.

  12. Ashley says:

    Thank you, Kevin and AnnMarie, for this excellent series!!!

    The challenge I see in applying mice studies to humans is of the Captain Obvious variety: mice don’t have minds/souls like we humans do! Our minds hold IMMENSE power over our bodies. We believe certain foods will have certain effects, we have nostalgia and feelings associated with certain foods, we eat in vastly different states of mind, we can stop digestion in its tracks with drama or stress, and our attitude (I’ve found) can even control our metabolism. Yogis who fast for 6-8 months at a time are living from the soul, not the body… and I have yet to see mice do this!

    Mice reflect controlled physical realities, the study of which I consider very helpful. In short – I find mice studies persuasive, but not law.

  13. Ineke says:

    I don’t know about the mice but isn’t that what generally is done? Also in the medical field? You want to know if some “potion” or medicine works…they try it on mice.

    With regards to her comments about eating meat…I would never eat it raw. What about parasites? I do eat a bit of fish and white meat occasionally but it is always cooked.

    From everything that is under the sun about the latest diets there are only 2 approaches stand up for me: Donna Gates (not always raw) and Hippocrates Institute (80-20) simply because both viewpoints use common sense and they respect one other factor that I think is very important to the planet…SUSTAINABILITY, more so then a philosophy

  14. duncanidaho says:

    Great question!! Most lab studies, including those in the China Study, which i enjoyed, do use mice. Do human share any DNA with mice?? Or is it simply more “ethical” to use these “simple” (inexpensive!!) animals?? Man’s closet relative, the chimpanzee (we share 98% of the most important areas of DNA), do consume insects and meat (other monkeys & small mammals). Meat appears to represent 5-8% of a chimps diet!! (You can find videos of chimps hunting on youtube.)

    Bottom line…something has to die for something else to live!! It’s called The CIRCLE of LIFE!!! Most vegans and vegetarians would be shocked to know that plants they eat do eat meat!!! In fact they thrive on it!! lol. Ever heard of humus? Yes the soil is ALIVE (read up on BioDynamic Farming) and plants we consume are conscious (read The Secret Life of Plants). Vegans might be surprised what their organic or preferably, biodynamic farmer feeds your produce…lol

  15. Michelle says:

    Susan Schenck, Daniel Vitalis…and many others I am sure…are vehement and passionate about one way, and then another. The bottom line is listen to your body and practice a well-balanced life. I’ve come to believe that no one really has the answers and we need to do our own experiments on ourselves, and be true to ourselves, whether that means to change our minds or not…

  16. angie leigh says:

    Well said Michelle!!!

    Exacally what I always say 🙂

    Our body has an inate intellegence within it, and we must listen to this above all else. Especailly when severe symptoms arise and adding a certain food to our diet aliveates these symptoms. This is not to suggest we stop gaining knowledge from health educators, rather it is to say we must ultimately do what is right for our vision of optimal health.

    Angie Leigh

  17. Angie Smith says:

    Mice studies true/valid for humans? I have no idea, but I think it’s definitely something to consider. Just like with any other source of “information”, I hold it in a place of “we’ll see” and if it resonates with me then it can move into a place of useful information.

    I applaud Susan for coming forth with what she has found to be true for herself. Whether it is true for others or not will be up to each person to figure out, but if she were so passionate & “out there” with what used to be true for her (her first book) and then didn’t share when things changed, then people could be misinformed. I’ve thought about this a lot just in my own circle of influence. People who knew that I was eating all raw before (I definitely shouted raw from the rooftops when I started feeling so much better) may look at me now as I’m continuing to get healthier and assume that it’s because of raw food, when in fact my diet changes from time to time and I haven’t eaten 100% raw for quite a while. I have been thinking that it might be good/helpful/honest/informative to let people know how my diet has changed so they have accurate information when considering their own health & food choices. I don’t run around with a big sign or preach diet to anyone, but if/when people ask me about it or want coaching on the raw lifestyle, I tell them how my diet has changed and tell them I’d be happy to help them learn how to prepare raw food, or traditional cooking methods, or vegetarian cooking, or cultured dairy products, or healthy salad dressings, or whatever else. Maybe I’ll offer to teach them to make horchata with high fructose corn syrup. Haha!

    p.s./FYI: I am healthier when cooking some animal products than if I eat them raw, and I currently do really well with raw grass-fed dairy – mostly cultured – but I didn’t always. Also, when I first added meat back to my diet, I ate it several times a week, but now (over a year later), eggs & raw dairy are good and I hardly ever eat meat. Next year I may find that I need to eat bugs twice a month or eat nothing but root vegetables for weeks on end – who knows? 🙂

  18. Courtney Peterson says:

    As a scientist myself, I can say that the nutrition studies with rats are not applicable to humans at all.

    It’s an entirely different species, with entirely different needs. For example, did you know that rats needs 3 TIMES the amount of protein (as a percentage of calories) as do humans? That’s why baby rats triple their body weight in just a few months, which is way faster than humans and other primate animals do.

    Nutrition studies on rats, mice, and other species were all the rage starting in the 1930s/1940s. Then lo and behold, they found that half a century later, that the results of nutrition studies on non-primate animals did not apply to humans. That’s why we do not base our nutritional requirements on the nutritional requirements of other species.

    It’s a shame because Dr. Bass is still in the 1940s mentality, and many raw food leaders still buy into studies done on species that are very different from humans.

    It’s also a shame that the all the myths regarding protein quality were done on rats, not humans. That’s what caused the myths in the first place. Yet, studies today show that the average human males can eat 40 grams of protein, with up to 75% of it coming from one source (rice), and still have adequate protein levels.

    Anyways, the nutrition and nutritional epidemiology communities have moved beyond this bad science and resulting mythology….while many elements of the raw food community have not.

  19. db says:

    Thank you Kevin for this video! I am so thankful that I subscribed yesterday! Actually Dr. Mercola does has research that supports what Susan Schenck stated.

    The aim should be TRUTH. If people have inappropriate anger, then that says much about the person, the diet, and their belief system.

    These studies with mice do have validity. In fact there are a form of human studies…Robbins….Schenck…other people documented by doctors.

    I think that is why CERTIFED ORGANIC and FREE RANGE are important. Also the process in which the animals life is taken should be as humane as possible.

    Have a great day!

    db

    P.S. Your caricature of your program prior to your live appearance is awesome. Great style and appearance.

  20. michelle says:

    I dont have a comment about the show for the day.. I am still trying to digest all the info.. but I would love to know where I can find the link for your radio show 🙂 .. I wish your wife was doing the show with you! I love her 😀

  21. Janet says:

    She talks a lot about fish as a brain food here. I am allergic to fish so if I had to rely upon this to feed my brain I would really suffer. Walnut oil is great for Omega 3s as is algae and chia. I eat eggs everyday as well as a lot of veggies (and smaller amounts of fruit). My brain feels great with eggs. I eat some chicken and turkey now. When I was a vegan my body was falling apart, regardless of how raw it was. When I became a vegetarian again, my health improved, but when I returned to eating some foul, my body really got better. David Wilcock says that there really are 16 different races on planet Earth. Why is it so hard to believe that with 16 different races (of which only 5 we now recognize) that they would require a different diet? I do believe in raw foods…but I also believe in some meat for me. I am not a meat eater like many are. I would say that my diet is about 70% veggies and some fruit, 15% eggs/dairy/meat, and %15% starches. It works pretty well for me. If there is anything that I would remove, it would be the 15% starches.

  22. Mary says:

    I am a vegan for ethical and environmental reasons before health reasons, but I also believe that vegans are far healthier than vegetarians and vegetarians are healthier than those who consume meat. I think Susan’s ideas are just plain wrong. There are numerous studies — high quality, peer reviewed studies that support what I say above.

    Any diet can be an unhealthy one if it is unbalanced and vegans do have to be careful to get enough B vitamins and Omega 3s. But meat eaters have higher levels of stroke and heart disease and cancer and all the meat eating/dairy consuming countries are far less healthy than the countries that are mostly plant-based.

    Susan also loses her credibility with me when she talks about the emotions of vegans. This is ridiculous. My experience is just the opposite. Look around! Vegans for the most part seem to be far gentler and more compassionate than the meat eaters. She also loses her credibility when she supports raw egg and raw beef eating. This is fine if you raise your own beef and chickens and know how they’ve been treated and what they’ve really been fed and that they haven’t been given hormones or antibiotics, but how many of us can do this. It’s not the least bit realistic.

    Vegans and especially raw vegans must be informed and that’s what you’re doing, Kevin. I hope you continue to support your vegan raw food followers and give us quality information to live this lifestyle. We need it. And we don’t need people telling us we need to consume animals.

  23. What about the Seventh Day Adventist studies?
    http://www.sdada.org/position.htm

    And Donald Watson, the creator of the word “vegan”? He lived to his mid-nineties in good health.
    http://www.foodsforlife.org.uk/people/Donald-Watson-Vegan/Donald-Watson.html

  24. Abakash says:

    She paints a fairly broad brush and mixes vegetarian with vegan.
    Billions of Hindus have been vegetarian for ages.
    Bill Pearl won the Mr. Universe as a vegetarian, he was in such amazing shape that Arnold was advised by Joe Weider not to compete against him. Now at age 78 he still works out 6 days a week, using very heavy weights.
    11 Vegetarians just competed in a 3,100 mile foot race, averaging over 50 miles a day, every day for nearly 2 months.
    The holder of the most Guinness records Ashrita Furman, has set over 300 is a vegetarian.
    Many have climbed Everest and swam the English channel while being vegetarian.
    It does go on and on ……
    Eating meat/fish is not essential or possibly healthy.

    I do hope she remains healthy & happy.

    Abakash

  25. Amanda says:

    I can’t believe a word this woman says anymore. I wish I hadn’t bought her first book. She was pushing animal experiments then, and evidently still is. It is not scientific and it is extremely cruel. It is not a sign of an educated civilised society. I cannot believe we are even discussing whether animal experiments are valid or not!

    People’s lives and health are at ‘steak’ if they continue down this horrendous road. What about the poor animals being slaughtered and eaten? What about the poor animals suffering in vivisection laboratories for this research? What about the effect on the environment? What about human health?! For every sick vegan (and being sick doesn’t necessarily mean it is always diet related) there are thousands that are healthy.

    I am surprised Kevin that you are giving this woman air space.

  26. I like Kevin and Annmaries eating plan! While listening to this interview I noticed that Kevin had to prompt Susan’s memory a couple of times. Kevin, you are sharp!

  27. MARY says:

    Total load of crap, instead of asking someone who doesn’t even know what is going to happen tomorrow ask ST FRANCIS OF PAOLA. There is a spiritual perspective to all this.

  28. MARY says:

    This is such utter nonsense. Soul dead! To kill and eat dead flesh will kill you. Such ignorance.

  29. Faunus says:

    No foods naturally contain vitamin B12 – neither animal or plant foods. Vitamin B12 is a microbe – a bacteria – it is produced by microorganisms. Vitamin B12 is the only vitamin that contains a trace element – cobalt – which gives this vitamin its chemical name – cobalamin – which is at the centre of its molecular structure. Humans and all vertebrates require cobalt, although it is assimilated only in the form of vitamin B12.

    According to Dr Vetrano, current books on nutrition in the U.S. have now stated that there is B12 in any food that contains quantities of the B vitamin complex, but previously they were just not able to assay the amounts. Nowadays, more modern technology has allowed them to discover that there is B12 in those foods rich in the B complex.

    The author does not believe that a vitamin B12 deficiency is more widespread in vegans or vegetarians – this is probably just another marketing lie! In fact, many so-called studies ‘showing vegans deficient’ have to be carefully studies themselves – many of them do not prove vegans to be deficient at all! In fact, contrary to meat and dairy industry propaganda, meat-eaters are known to be more likely to have a vitamin B12 deficiency – this has been known since 1959.
    (‘Fit for Life, Diamond, H. and M., 1987)

    According to Marieb’s ‘Human Anatomy and Physiology’, vitamin B12 can be destroyed by highly alkaline and highly acid conditions. This assumes that the B12 in meat would be easily destroyed because the hydrochloric acid in our stomaches during the digestion of meat is highly acidic. This may explain why meat-eaters are just as likely to have a B12 deficiency as vegans – even though their diet contains vitamin B12. Also, for meat-eaters, there is antiobiotics contained in meat! Of course, many meat-eaters destroy their friendly bacteria in their intestines by constant putrefaction and the putrefactive bacteria naturally present in meat will give the body a hard time.

    Dan Reeter, at Bio-Systems Laboratories in Colorado is creating one of the world’s most comprehensive computer facilities for soil biology testing. He says that, from his extensive tests, plants grown in organically-managed soil make significantly higher levels of usable vitamin B12. It has also been reported that vitamin B12 is present in wild fruits and wild and home-grown plant foods.

    The author contends that animal and dairy produce is a poor source of Vitamin B12 since the vitamin is contained in nutrient-deranged foodstuffs which will inevitably destroy the usability of the vitamin. Studies show that those following a typical animal-based diet require more vitamin B12 than those who do not. This is because the typical diet leads to digestive atrophy. Because B12 is peptide-bound in animal products and must be enzymatically cleaved from the peptide bonds to be absorbed, a weakened gastric acid and gastric enzyme secretions (due to a cooked food diet) causes an inability to efficiently extract vitamin B12 from external food. Nevertheless, raw food vegans who have a more powerful digestion actually get more B12 by reabsorption from the bile than they do from external food. Wolfe argues that the natural soil microbes and bacteria found on wild plant foods and unwashed garden plants are typically adequate to supply our B12 requirements. The natural microbes in the soil need to be duplicated and to colonise in our digestive tract, without fermentation or putrefaction.

    Dr Gabriel Cousens argues that vitamin B12 deficiency is typically caused by lack of absorption in the intestinal tract rather than a lack of this vitamin in the diet. Annie and Dr David Jubb argue that people have lived in such a sterile, antiseptic environment for so long that these necessary symbiotic organisms have been less than present in our diet. They argue that by ingesting soil-born organisms you can maintain an enormous reservoir of uncoded antibodies ready to transform specific pathogens, the way nature intended – by eating a little dirt!

    If a person is healthy and on a healthy vegan, high-percentage raw food diet and does not habitually over-eat, wrongly combine their foods and abuse their bodies generally, and utilises fasting on occasion, it is unlikely that they will develop B12 deficiency symptoms providing their intestinal flora was not previously deranged. Vitamin B12 deficiency is usually symptomatic of a larger problem i.e. poor intestinal flora, poor absorption and also lack of sunlight.

    B12 deficiencies are caused by intestinal dysbiosis AND bile occlusion. People would easily avoid B12 issues by cleaning out their liver and intestines, including more fermented foods and probiotic supplements (like Dr. Jubb’s LifeColloid). Organic unsterilized plant-based foods supply everything the body needs, including B12.

    People can learn how to remove their bile occlusion by reading Andreas Moritz’ book The Amazing Liver and Gallbladder Flush:
    http://www.ener-chi.com/book.htm#amazing

    Please do your homework Susan. And don’t scare people into consuming eggs and flesh. They only contribute to disease and are highly acidic. Read the book Alkalize or Die, by Dr. Theodore A. Baroody. Flesh and eggs are highly detrimental to healthy blood formation and will eventually cause arterial plaque. Anyone who has worked with live blood cell analysis will tell you that meat and eggs wreak havoc in your blood and invite pathogens to multiply.

  30. Jennifer says:

    Once again, Susan makes some strong points! I have resisted the meat thing, as honestly the vegetarian way of life ( is what I have adapted) since coming off the raw vegan diet at 100%. Vegetarianism just speaks to me and I have a strongly resistanced moving towards eating meat.The part of Susan last talk here that has rung true for me is the fact that when I tried 100% raw veganism I was very much more emotional and high strung. It was so much easier from me to cry and much easier from me to get upset and become defensive.I would argue or debate points with people over principals almost to a fault. I had forgotten temperance!! I have read a post or two here, in which I recognize this extream emotionalism at play. Once you have been on the diet for a while it is hard to be “objective” about your feelings and reactions to life and other people.

    If Susan needs to eat meat, I do not understand why there are some that have a vested interest in arguing over this fact or the need to have control over what is on her plate! If being vegan makes one more spiritually minded, then the first law one should base their lives on loves their neighbor, as you would love yourself. The ability to be patient with people and model correct living by example speaks volumes. I have found many vegans to be some of the most argumentative people on the planet. Practicing non violence towards animals and the environment but then not applying this principal to your fellow human beings, is placing the cart before the horse in a very profound way, don’t think?

    I have two children with Autism and I agree with Susan, of not being willing to experiment on the next generation for a philosophical stance. That is easy to say, until you have a child that comes into the world without something basic that you could have provided.

    As a matter of fact when I become pregnant with my boys 18 years ago I had been on the cooked version of a vegan diet for some time. I think I might be one of those people that just is not able to re-cycle B-12 very well and my DHA levels can get seriously low pretty fast as well. If anyone here knows anything about Autism (it is a neurological disorder) and low B-12 and DHA levels are some of the major contributing factors in this disorder.

    As a result I will not feed my children a purely raw vegan diet and I am coming to terms that it most likely is not best for me either. The idea of eggs and raw fermented dairy with a good fish oil supplement has been the direction I am headed in.

    I suffer from the same short term memory issues as Susan mentioned and they only get better with the addition of some high quality well placed animal based foods.

    Although E3-Live and fresh wheatgrass does help too (to some degree.)

    Jennifer

  31. taylor says:

    I love how she was stumbling over the names of books and you recalled them perfectly, Kevin.

    Who has the better brain?

    =)

  32. I don’t believe animal experimentation is valid to begin with … rat physiology and human physiology is vastly different. I also believe animal experimentation to be barbaric. However, “Dr” Bass’ experimentation is even less valid as the diet he fed the rats was not controlled and what he fed them was fairly random and on some days would have been nutritionally deficient for both groups.

    At 46 as a raw/cooked vegan for the past several years, I am in far better health than when I was in my 20s. The only supplement I use is occasional B12. My strength and stamina has greatly increased now as a vegan … I haven’t even found my upper limits for some things yet. For her to say she has never met a vegan in peak health is downright disingenuous.

  33. Angela says:

    Monks are vegan, a study of there health should be evaluated. Also, maybe she had poor muscle mass because she wasn’t doing any form of weight training exercises or body weight exercises to add muscle. Do not think mice

  34. Christopher says:

    I applaud, I have really enjoyed this interview! On an earlier video, she brought it home by saying “What’s more important, your health or your philosophy?” And I have been vegetarian for several years now and vegan for about a year, but have had some anemic reactions I have been working with for a long time now. Some of my symptoms have been big troubles with memory and fatigue.

    Well I felt empowered to stand up and try something unthinkable out after watching part 1 of the interview: and that was fish. And so I tried some fresh clam from an Asian grocery store here in Seattle and later that day I could not stop laughing and telling jokes. My girlfriend actually asked me if I was high. It was odd for me to eat, but I actually did feel really good. The next day I went to the store and bought some of the high quality DHA eggs that she talked about and have been eating them for the past few days.

    I am still eating living foods and lots of greens other than that. But the difference of adding those foods have been really pleasant so far. And there have been times that I have eaten quote “Raw, super foods” and have not felt much of anything but would tell myself that it is doing me good.

    I am delighted to be part of this discussion and I feel very blessed to have found a community of people who are opened minded enough to take it all in to consideration. Thank you Kevin and Annmarie for the interview, and Susan for your courage, I look forward to posting updates!

  35. Angela says:

    oops, mice generation studies are not good enough to compare to humans. The rat study that made the dairy industry rich was based on rats who were given milk (in a nutshell) and rats that were not, the rats on milk were the healtiest, but we are not rats! We do not need dairy to be healthy.

  36. Andrew says:

    I’m not sure about the validity of the studies. I’d love to know what exactly the mice were eating. I mean, were they on microwaved bread and soy burgers? Were they on fresh, organic apples and lettuce? Maybe goji berries and chlorella? Surely this makes a significant difference aside from simply whether their diet fitted in the ‘vegan’ box or not. I’m sure Susan would have considered this in her research, but I think it’s an important aspect that outlining explicitly would be useful for listeners.

    I’m not sure what to make of this interview, but it’s good to have some ‘other’ ideas thrown around. Thanks, guys. 🙂

  37. Bonjour Kevin,

    thank for your interview. I am thankful that I bought her first book, but I will not the second. I respect her choice but I am surprise that you give her 4 days space on your great show. One would be ok, but 4 is too much for her message.
    Mice are great model in research, but not for human nutrition. Rat would be more appropriate before they have similar digestive track as us.
    Dr. Jérôme
    in Normandie, France.

  38. eyla says:

    Studies on animals other than humans to find out what is right/wrong for humans are not valid.
    Not only that, they are cruel and as mentioned before, conducted in possibly uncontrolled ways and over questionable time scales.

    I also think of parasites when I think of eating raw flesh, I know that if our body is in good health we should be able to fight off these invaders but I don’t have first hand experience of this nor do I want to test this theory out.

    I feel that the best expert about health is our body and we should listen to it and monitor it.
    She is doing what feels good for her and I don’t feel a right to criticize/attack her for that, however she does make generalizations which I don’t agree with.

    I also think that animal products may have been the most immediate thing to get certain blood levels of nutrients up but at what cost?
    I feel that there are other possible negative implications to consuming as much animal products as she says she does (several servings per week)e.g. raised acidity leading to bone thinning, or any issue raised by T. Colin Campbell in the China Study, Brian Clement etc, etc.

    My gut feeling is that as animals we evolved as opportunists and we can get away with the odd bit of animal products and thrive that way, I chose not to, but I feel this is a logical way to be…

    I think that there are many incredibly healthy vegans out there, it takes work and attention to detail, but so do most dietary/lifestyle choices and it’s something I’m prepared to do to live as a health, ethical and environmental conscious vegan.

    Saying all this, she is entitled to her opinion and is very brave and honest to come out with this in a sometimes dogmatic and confusing community!

  39. Pat says:

    Her point was have your self checked. As for killing animals, I wonder how many vegans would ever consider having an abortion???

  40. Rob says:

    ALL fruits, veggies (unpasteurized)dairy, (farm raised non-toxic)meats, (fresh non-farmed)fish, and breads/pastas(unbleached), herbs & spices ARE good for you in moderation!!! Simply eating a balance diet, with exercise, sunlight and sufficient downtime (meditation/prayer) WILL MAKE & KEEP you happy…

    Suki-hotu…

  41. Elmer J. Fudd says:

    Like Dr. McDougall says, “People love to get good news about their bad habits.” Susan provides plenty of “good news.”

  42. Treeplanter says:

    Mouse studies are valid, especially if they show the mice losing fertility and babies dying after several generations.

    If vegan mice die out after several generations, that says a lot about the notion that human society could be vegan.

    Susan’s main point is that there is no record of vegan human societies. They just did not happen. Any society that has been studied has used animal products of some kind.

    Even largely vegetarian societies such as India relied on milk products, that’s why their cows are sacred. Without milk, the people would have died.

    In modern times, there was a group of extreme vegans in Ethiopia whose babies started dying from B-12 deficiency. This speaks volumes.

    Now, it may be possible for some vegans to supplement with B-12 and still live a long, healthy life. But as Susan points out, this is a new experiment for humans. It has not happened before. If you want to be part of that experiment, go ahead, but pay attention to your body’s signals and be willing to change if it is not working for you.

    But no one should say that a strict vegan diet is “natural” for humans. It is a brand new experiment. Even our primate cousins eat bugs.

    I’ll be having salad and free range eggs for dinner tonight.

    Michael T.

  43. eyla says:

    This is a discussion about food and morality.
    There are countless other moral issues that cannot and should not be compared to this,
    it’s wise to respect others individual situations, choices and needs.

  44. Eva says:

    The interesting aspect of all this is that it is only the health of the person that is taken into consideration and not the health of every being on the planet. Isn’t that what got us into this greed and horrible animal farming in the first place .We liked the taste of a cheese burger and ice cream and never looked back as what it cost the earth.

    We are intelligent beings with a mass of information through blood testing and awesome supplements. What starts out as a need becomes a desire and then a compulsion. At a Food as Medicine conference one speaker suggested that sardines that are sustainably harvested as well as sustainable farmed oysters were all the needed animal products. What’s with the beef? Eggs and dairy are the highest allergens in kids.
    Kevin, perhaps you can gift her with your latest e-book on how to read your own blood test( It is SO Incredible) and she will not have to wait to become deficient to get back into balance again.
    Susan step lightly upon this earth she is fragile.

    Shant,i Shanti, Shanti

  45. Eva says:

    Oh by the way last time I checked humans were not mice! That was the same way they determined our protein needs and that study was strongly influenced by the beef industry to sell more meat.
    Donna Gates said at the last Longevity conference that even carnivores were protein deficient due to unhealthy gut bacteria. So start with fermented foods before reaching for the embryos and and other sentient beings.

  46. Diana (Ohio) says:

    This has been an interesting interview. I, like so many others, have listened to and read many other peoples perspectives on what is healthy and then we use ourselves as guinea pigs. There have been many ups and downs, many successes and many failures.

    I think if we listen to our bodies and have a BALANCED approach to life, we will do fine.

    Everyone is different. Different makeup, different locale, different ages, different mindsets, different everything, and that is what is so unique among humans. I am not the same person I was 20 years ago, I am changing in many, many ways, and 20 years from now there will still be changes going on. Why can’t we give ourselves and others the room and the freedom to learn and grow and change? Nothing should be written in stone.

    That’s what I love about Kevin and Annmarie, not afraid to change and not afraid OF change.

  47. Thomas says:

    Here is Dr. Bass’s web site to learn more of him:
    http://drbass.com/mice.html

    He seems to advocate a predominantly raw food vegetarian diet augmented with chicken eggs. FYI: you can still have chicken eggs without killing any life form. Hens will still lay eggs without a rooster around to fertilize them. You just won’t get any more chickens.

    And so the age-old question:
    “Are you a (wo)man or a mouse?” 🙂

  48. Sandra Patterson says:

    Thank you for this interview. I think the pros and cons of any subject are important to consider while searching for truths in any area. Whether or not I agree with Susan’s conclusions, I applaud her honesty.

  49. Fay says:

    The China Study?

  50. Eve says:

    Mice have the advantage of giving us many generations to study in a short period of time. And we share a lot of DNA.

    But back to an earlier post I made about how humans are the only animals who cook our foods, and cooked meat looking like the evolutionary factor that led to big powerful unique human brains…

    Since that occurred over a 1-2 million year period, humans had time to EVOLVE internal cooked-meat consumption changes which NO OTHER ANIMAL has evolved.

    How it happened might look like this: not all early humans did well eating cooked meat. Depending on food availability, maybe those humans who DID digest and assimilate cooked meat well thrived, proliferated and passed their genes on while those who didn’t, gradually died off. That’s how evolution works.

    (Given the amount of energy required for cooking, it seems likely that meat – with its fast spoilage rate – was cooked thru’out millenia a lot more than any veg foods… tho’ even today, chimps will go thru a forest after a fire and eat seeds they can’t eat uncooked.)

    So – the effects of cooked food/meat on ANY animals are, by necessity, different from the effects of cooked food/meat on humans. No animal evolved the internal resources we have vis’a’vis cooked meat.

    So – what’s a mouse’s normal diet? As soon as we change that to something we want to study, we have likely veered away from optimal mouse health.

    So it’s hard to say how accurately these mouse studies predict any human diet outcomes.

    I will add, that I personally know people who have been 100% live raw for decades, and now have severe neurological deficits which can be a result of long-term vitamin B12 deficiency.

    So Kevin, you are SO RIGHT about the need for regular blood tests to know whether you’re becoming deficient. By the time you show symptoms, it may be impossible to raise your levels enough to reverse the symptoms.

  51. Russ says:

    Great interview kevin. Susan makes some very good points and i’m glad she is speaking out about this.

  52. Veronika says:

    No, mice do not have the same nutritional needs have humans!!! Please have Dr. Rick Dina on your show so he can explain and correct this false information.

    Part of fueling false information is when people directly translate mice studies into “this is what happens to humans.” When I was studying for my neuroscience degree, our professors warned us about reviewers and even other scientists who misunderstand how studies were carried out, or purposely tweak the meaning of the results for their own agenda.

    Recent studies on HUMANS have shown new data for recommended amino acid levels – you can search for it on the USDA’s website. Those studies PROVED that mice require different levels of certain amino acids than humans, which makes some previous mice studies irrelevant to humans. Unfortunately it will take years before reviewers, authors, and the general public catch up to the new data.

    Everyone should look into the nutritional courses offered by Dr.s Rick and Karin Dina. They explain in extreme detail how our nutritional needs can be met on a vegan diet.

    A response regarding Susan’s position on “brain food”:

    You can get DHA from algae! That’s how cold water fish get their omega 3s!!

    Also keep in mind that when you cook fish, omega 3s are destroyed and oxidized, just like you’re not supposed to expose flax seed oil to heat. So eat it raw if you’re going that route.

    And you have to look at cell membrane levels of omega 3, not blood levels. DHA goes almost straight to the membranes when it’s converted from ALA, so blood levels would be low in a healthy person because it doesn’t sit there (that’s a good thing!).

    Check out Dr. Rick Dina’s informative video on ALA/EPA/DHA conversion of omega 3s in plant and animal food: http://www.rawfooddoctors.com/articles.html

    Dr. Rick & Karin Dina are 19yr vegans, very healthy and intelligent, and not overly emotional.

  53. mk says:

    my opine – the higher frequency you vibrate on the less solid matter you need to ingest …breatharian,liquidarian fruitarian,raw vegan, vegan,vegetarian, omnivore,carnivore.

  54. Veronika says:

    To be clear – I have no connection to Dr.s Rick and Karin Dina other than I saw them speak at the Raw Health Expo, and Rick’s lecture on amino acid profiles of plants was extremely educational well researched.

    They were the first people I thought of after seeing Susan’s video, and I think it would be a good to present facts from a different perspective, especially from people who have a better background in nutrition.

  55. Christi says:

    When did John Robbins say that he was no longer a vegan?

  56. Veronika says:

    What studies have Dr. Stanley Bass done that are actually published? I couldn’t find a single study related to nutrition by him on Pubmed. Maybe I’m not looking correctly, so please fill me in. The only published studies I found were done by an SS Bass on different subject matter:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

  57. hyesun says:

    has anyone seen this from mercola?
    The Dark Side of the China Study Story Supporting Vegetarianism…
    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/09/08/china-study.aspx

  58. Kathleen says:

    What do you think of Dr. Mercola’s reaction that a vegetarian diet is not healthy for everyone (article on his website yesterday). One of his statements is that his triglycerides went way up after a few weeks eating fruit for breakfast (from 100 to 3000). Is that possibble?

  59. Eve says:

    Hey Kevin! Here’s an article in support of your “unusual comment” about the big salmonella egg recall (see Nestle quote at end): http://www.slashfood.com/2010/09/07/the-cage-debates-the-egg-industry-pushes-back/#ixzz0z5Grytdw

  60. kt mm says:

    Another job well done! This was brilliant and really drives home that people are all different. What works for one, might not work for another. By stating people’s lives are at stake, Susan was meaning that many people aren’t aware that they may be causing these deficiencies because they are following blindly that there is only one way to be healthy. I’ve been watching for a long time and see how Susan fits in the grand scheme of things-know yourself and be open to new ideas. I was reading the comments and this interview has generated some EXCELLENT discussions! Keep up the good work.
    As for mice, I can only echo prior comments- Humans are NOT mice.

  61. john says:

    The study done with mice is I believe a rough indication .I say that because a mice or rat has a totally different body chemistry and metabolism than a humane being .From what I understand the best or closest animal that comes closest to a humane would have to be a pig ,it’s body chemistry and metabolism etc. are closest to man. Well said # 14

  62. Mary Artemis says:

    Isn’t it true the brain runs on glucose and not fish or fish oil? I thought that was a well known fact. Also, she seems a bit emotional herself, speaking about people who disagree with her not getting enough brain food. If she believes what she is saying, then proving it should be enough. Of course vegetarians are not healthy (they eat too much pizza!) however, I believe you are a guinea pig if you eat SAD !!

    I agree to listen to the body. Dr. Cousens does not eat fruit (a big mistake to my mind). As well, didn’t I read that the research shows that people who eat animals and cooked food have B12 deficiencies in the SAME amount and ratio? I need to hear this from her, documented. I read in Joe Mercola this morning that B12 deficiencies exist in “normal” people who eat animals, etc….!

  63. Mary Artemis says:

    Something sounds fishy – no pun intended.

  64. nick says:

    Anyone who says that a certain diet is good for everyone may be brain damaged!!

  65. Michael says:

    Chimpanzees can be studied, and they very closely resemble the DNA structure of humans. They eat 50% fruit, 40% leafy greens, and 10% branches, bark, etc.

  66. Lotus says:

    Many people are actually very kind souls, too eager to help others. However, if one lacks the wisdom, one might be doing bad thing with a good heart. One might be leading others down the cliff, with what he/she thought is the Truth. I am not a knowledgeable person. But I once hear that animals produced lots of toxins when they are in danger, or when being ill-treated or killed. Therefore, is quite difficult to gain health from eating such toxic meats or dairy products. Another thing I read, was about an ancient wise man, who was a very kind and generous person. This wise man who lived to about 200+ years, said one should calm one’s mind, control one’s desires, be compassionate, live simply, eat lightly, exercise, in order to be healthy. Nowadays, there are too much disclosures about animals ill-treatments. How can one still eat meat in peace or gain health from them? One might be eating the animals’ anger, hatred, ill feelings, anything but nutrients. One might be too driven by one’s desires or fear, that hinder one from seeing the Truth, and eventually leading others down the cliff together with him/her. Of course, everyone has a choice, maybe should just do it quietly.

  67. RW says:

    Question: is a slaughtered animal’s flesh, dead food or living food, even if you where to eat it raw?
    Does animal flesh have genetic memory and if you consume the flesh does the memory convey to the eater any effects?
    Quote:
    Think of the fierce energy concentrated in an acorn! You bury it in the ground, and it explodes into an oak! Bury a sheep, and nothing happens but decay. ~George Bernard Shaw

  68. angel says:

    Kevin, I can’t beleive you gave her air space, for heaven’s sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

  69. I hope this is the last interview with her, I’ve had enough of her. I listened with an open mind but with each interview she lost credibility with me. Vegans are more emotional? Give me a break! If anything, I’ve become more balanced since going vegan. She conveniently doesn’t mention anything about saturated fat from all the meat she’s eating or pcds/mercury that could be in fish! So, not seeing how eating meat is necessarily better. I do agree that organic eggs could be fine (no problem there) but also don’t think that people who are eating them are deficient or emotional. She she really say that people got healthier after starting to eat dairy again??? So weird…

  70. christine says:

    Kevin –

    i am under the care of a Naturopath/Acupuncturist, but i would love to hear YOUR take on my health issues.

    On Jan 1, 2009, i began a 80-90% raw vegetarian diet (very minute bit of raw goat cheese). the non-raw was only gluten-free whole grains or steamed veggies.

    At first i experienced amazing health. energy, vitality, elevated moods, etc. But around September i began to have acne. I also noticed that too much fruit made my skin itch. I figured out I had systemic candida and tested it by going on a no-sugar no-fruit cleanse for the month of December. While it worked, it was difficult and i missed the ease of greens in sweet smoothies.

    I began this calendar year somewhat confused. More than a few NDs and chinese dr’s have told me that the raw foods dampened my condition which may have been pre-existing. due to the factors of: taking tons of antibiotics as a child, eating too much sugar, having poor digestion.

    I went back to eating about 50% raw with the inclusion of raw goat cheese and local free range eggs. I still laid off the gluten and cut back my fruit consumption.

    My symptoms of candida got a lot worse. Not only did i have acne, but some eczema, random dry skin itching, mental confusion, lethargy that cacao/green tea could not touch, and odd smelling urine.

    I just got a IgG food allergy test back today which indicated that i am very sensitive to dairy, eggs, most gluten, and some random other things (like bananas, almonds, and rice!). In addition to omitting those things (which are easy to do), my DR thinks I should have no fruit due to the candida; and also that i should only eat warmed/steamed veggies. She diagnosed me with Leaky Gut. Leaky gut seems like one of those illnesses that raw foodists swear they were cured from on a raw diet.

    I am groaning at the thought of only eating steamed veggies and gluten free grains. But at the same time, my poor GI tract needs a break. I feel like the lost sheep of the raw world. I was never strict raw but now i;m being told that steamed kale is far better than even lettuce for me.

    Im just curious to know your (or anyone else’s) opinions/experience on this; if it seems to have happened before and what do people do. Natalia Rose, a raw food enthusiast, wrote “Detox for Women” in which she stated that candida is almost an epidemic among women…with the estrogens in our foods, toxins in our environment and excess sugar in our diet more of us than ever before are coming up with this condition. I think my Leaky gut and candida go hand in hand. I cant help but wonder if it wouldnt have been exacerbated by raw foods.

    Thanks for your time!

  71. susiequeue says:

    I lived with a vegan for two years and he had just become vegan when he met me. At first he was fine, then he got weirder and weirder (and thinner)he became like a control freak and one day when I was eating some cheese on my veggie spaghetti, he got really angry with me. The next day he told me it wasn’t him being angry with me, but his “ego” was! By the end of our relationship he was really not well in the head at all.

  72. Detox says:

    I admire her honesty but there is something not quite right about her. Does she know how many meat eaters get angry? All these people going mental and shooting other people in a mad rage are never vegans or even vegetarians. Some of what she says makes sense. But it seems that if anyone disagrees with her, then they have a mental problem.

    So a few things. Do you notice that she couldn’t remember the name of a book in this interview. So eating fish onbiosly hasn’t sorted he memory out. And how about her research. First she thinks you need to be a vegan, then she thinks you shouldn’t be one. I had a quick look on her blog and she says that in her first book she says drinking ionized water caused her health issues. She now refutes that and said she didn’t research it properly. So that’s two things she research and seems to have got wrong. Will she be back next year with another theory.

    I’m very open-minded when it comes to diet. If I am wrong about being a vegan I will accept it. But there are so many studies showing that vegans and vegetarians and more healthy than meat eaters. She obviusly has a prblem with being vegan, so my guess is she ate fish, thought it help her and then tried to find research that justified her new stance. I wouldn’t be surprised if she ignored any research suggesting a vegan diet is good. And what about all the research for her first book. How is that all suddenly invalid.

    It doesn’t sound like she’s a very capabale researcher. She just seems to use research that fits her current belief. I had a bit of respect for her but am losing that quickly. She just comes across as ‘I know better than the rest of you because you are all mentally impaired’. If we don’t eat fish then we aren’t allowed to debate with her.

    I will still get the book though because I’d like to see her arguements in full.

  73. Lorien says:

    The most interesting thing to me about this interview is the response from the crowd. What ever happened to judge not and to thine own self be true? I am always willing to really listen to someone else’s point of view, even if I know going in that I disagree. I am confident in what I believe and I know why I believe it. I don’t have to make you wrong in order to feel right about my choices. You can be confident in what you believe and still be willing to be wrong. In my opinion you will not grow if you are not willing to listen to things with an open mind that are outside your comfort zone. I am not going to run out and have a raw egg or BBQ a steak for lunch because of what Susan say’s. However if my intent while listening to her is to discount or find fault because I do not agree with her basic belief then I’m not really listening and I might miss something that would enrich me.

  74. Patty says:

    Oh, I get it now! We’re all being punk’d! I’m surprised I fell for it for this long. It finally occurred to me that there’s no way this woman could actually be serious about all this absurd nonsense. Good one! Do I get a prize for being the first to get it?

  75. Dee says:

    I agree with #9 Stephanie, that the tests are valid for Mice. And I liked #15 Michelle’s comments. Hasn’t western medicine tried to fit everyone into one slot? We also see this in the SAD diet that we have been told is good for us. I just hear that in what Susan is saying. She almost sounds like the ex-smoker in her vehement statements.

    As to her strong convictions about fish and fish oil, what about the mercury levels? Shouldn’t they be consumed in moderation? And doesn’t mercury affect brain function along with the nervous system?

    One of the problems that I see with vegetarianism in this country, is that so many of the products that are being sold are soy-based. Until I found this forum, my diet was just that, and yes I had issues. I replaced meat that my body could not digest with soy that messed with my hormones.

    Renegade Health has turned my life around and expanded what and how I eat. So thank you Kevin and Ann Marie for your valued contribution.

  76. yeah im ready to be done with her interviews too…personally i dont go with “promoting” meat eating. I just dont believe that animals are for us to eat. Please no more! =)

  77. Veronika says:

    Haha, #74 Patty, your comment is hilarious. I was secretly hoping for that too.

  78. Jan says:

    Studies done on mice. Do I agree with them NO. It is done all the time by drug company’s and no one seems to question them. Even with about half of the drugs beening called off the market within five to ten years.

    This girl has some memory issues that she told us about. Maybe people should take that into consideration and be thankful they are not in her shoes. No one really knows the extent of her problems. I wish people would focus on being positive and kind to each other. Her problems may not even be diet related. I work with many people who had minor bumps on the head and thought nothing of it and ended up with traumatic brain damage that did not get diagnosed till years later. It beening traced back to what they thought was a minor bump on the head.

  79. Medkid says:

    It’s always great that she is honest, and has had the courage to change her mind this radically. She doesn’t sound very knowledgeable though, if you wan’t to hear about healthy eating including animal products, check out these people instead –
    Daniel Vitalis (off course :))
    Mark Sisson
    Loren Cordain
    Western A. Price Foundation
    Mercola
    Nora Gedgaudas
    Rob Wolff

    btw. I have read and tried the Metabolic Typing Diet, and for me it didn’t really do anything, also it doesn’t seem that scientifically based – anybody got any information/studies to prove me wrong? plz link 🙂

  80. Joyce Braun says:

    I think she only serves to confuse people like me. I am vegan, high raw for the most part, and stuff like this scares me. I dont want to get sick, but I dont want to eat animals either. I’m not sure raw is working for me, heck I dont know if vegan works for me, but eating animals isnt an option.

    So what now? What should a vegan do who isnt as vibrant as they could be, but cant/wont eat animals?

    I think the guilt alone would kill me

  81. Erin says:

    Thank God there are honest people like Susan Schenck out there, whether you agree with her or not.

    Interesting that a few vegans got so angry with her for saying vegans could have imbalances in the brain for lack of proper nutrition.

    Honestly, from their comments, they seem like they do have some kind of imbalance. In her defense, she did not say all would, so it seems these vegans just wanted to spew their anger at her.

    Anyway, don’t know about the mice studies. My question is, do other studies on mice prove true? A good place to start perhaps, to validate the findings.

    For me, and I know for some it’s an oxymoron, eating an animal for food is not a crime. I am against animal cruelty, improper treatment, abuse and the like, ofcourse! But is it morally wrong? No, not in any way shape or form.

    The whole karma thing about eating them is lame, to me. I mean, I understand where they’re coming from, I just don’t agree. I mean, if someone wants to raise an animal respectfully and then take it’s life respectfully for sustenance, so be it.

    And if some people are tortured at the thought of eating them, then don’t. And leave it at that.

    Part of the beauty of being a human being is having the freedom to choose. How about respecting that, whether you like the choice they make, or not. Hmmm?

  82. Diane says:

    It seems like she fell off the vegan wagon and now she wants everyone to be carniverous too. No thanks. I am healthy and happy – not angry or tense – being vegan and i will stay with it. Alot of health issues have gone away by my eliminating dairy and I will not go backward.

  83. Meri says:

    Mice are genetically similar to humans, as I understand it. Therefore the results of the study MAY translate to humans too, but we must bear in mind that we can’t draw any DEFINITIVE conclusions until similar studies are conducted on humans. So the information is useful and worthy of consideration, but we need to continue to explore the possibilities of what this means for humans.

    I find Susan’s point of view very interesting and thought provoking, and I respect her for her willingness to change and do what she feels is best for her. Can’t we all just do what we feel is best for us and not judge other peoples’ choices?

  84. Maggie says:

    Each one of us is unique and as many have said above, you have to find what works best for your individual body, soul, mind, and spirit. That may change as you age so it’s good to always be mindful of how you are feeling (and what your testing may show)and adjust accordingly. If that means adding back in foods that you previously eliminated or maybe eliminating foods you currently have in your diet, then so be it. There is no one-size-fits-all plan so let’s just peace out and move on.

  85. durianrider says:

    I find it funny that Susan ISNT EVEN AN ATHLETE, and she says she doesnt get enough protein and she was a ‘99% vegan’. What on earth does that mean?

    What about us vegans/raw vegans that are super fit and healthy?

    I cant believe Kevin used the ‘studies with mice means its the same in humans’ BS.

    Come on Kevin, if you want to stir up controversy, get me on your show! 🙂

    I ran a 1:25:53 half marathon yesterday and Mike Arnstein won ANOTHER marathon last fortnight..how about that and where do we get our protein from. 🙂

    How about you get lady gaga on the show with her raw meat bikini next time..

  86. Barbara says:

    Essential fatty acid foods sources for vegans:
    1. chia seeds.
    2. walnuts.
    3. flax seeds.
    4. hemp seeds.

    You don’t have to eat fish to get these good fats. Eat them raw, unheated and unprocessed. That is the best. Where do you think the herbivores get their fats from?
    Barbara

  87. jen says:

    hi all…recently started eating meat again after 18 years… it’s been really hard, but I can’t live off of supplements to feel “healthy” anymore. everyone uses the china study as evidence of the healthiness of a vegan diet. but, after reading several well written/researched critiques, i see that it’s more about his opinion using correlational data versus causal data. Check out: rawsos blog for a great review. Dr. Mercola also wrote one, as well as Dr. Eades. For more detailed information about the fallacies of a vegan diet, check out: The Vegetarian Myth, by Thierre Keith. It will blow your mind. Luck to all…and openmindness too!

  88. Mary says:

    Thanks all for your opinions! The truth for me is that we’ve been 95% raw for 7 yrs. Within that time, I’d say my husband & I were 100% 3 mos. out of ea. yr. And we did supplementation. Now, I feel best with some eggs/fish, not ea. day, but once or twice a week. My teeth started falling out and I felt weak at times. The balance of some animal prod. works to me & I’m O pos blood type. I agree with Jen, the China Study did not go into food combining and many other things that may have made a difference. And, people do put their own spin on whatever statistics show up. I love being vegan raw to cleanse, & can feel when I need to do that now. I know some vegetarians who are off balance emotionally, in my opinion, and I applaud their commitment not to harm animals.Thanks Susan, for writing your books:)

  89. Cathy says:

    I just finished reading The World Peace Diet by Dr. William Tuttle. You can go to his website worldpeacediet.com to get a free download of his book! If you know how animals are being treated (on modern day concentration camps), you would no longer eat animal flesh. God did not intend for us to torture animals as they are being tortured at these factory farms and then eat their diseased and distressed flesh. Everything we need for good nutrition is abundantly supplied in nature … organic veggies, fruits, legumes, seeds, nuts, sprouts, sea vegetables, fresh herbs, and whole grains! A creative and healthy diet is only a good cookbook away! Change it up daily, add fresh herbs, organic spices and some super foods into the mix! And don’t forget … give thanks daily! We are so abundantly blessed!

    Cathy

  90. MARY says:

    St Francis of Paola founded a vegan order of monks and nuns, he was well, healthy and incredibly strong far into advanced age, he also performed countless miracles.
    The problem is there is a failure to comprehend the suffering of the animal being killed. That animal you are suffocating to death desires life just as much as you do. I suffers pain in just the same way.
    It says in the Gospel of the Essenes , that if you kill and eat flesh you will get sick. The karma involved in killing aninmals will have to be paid back. No saint of a higher order will allow the killing of animals and eating their dead flesh. Check out the saints.

  91. Tracy Julias says:

    Wow, I see a lot of emotions from this show. I have to say I really try to look at all studies objectively. Thank you Susan for your honesty. The rule of thumb for me is listen to your body and or your kids behavior. Make adjustments accordingly, this may be day to day adjustments. Seasons have a factor in what your body craves and emotions. Bottom line is the human body is complicated and there is no right or wrong just what resonates with you. Love and peace to all.

  92. Cathy says:

    Mary, you’re comment is the missing link here. It’s much more than what we choose to eat, it’s our intake of suffering that creates our own suffering.

    Cathy

  93. Essential fatty acids are found in sea vegetables. Where do you think fish get them from?
    I would like to know your source or research that shows that chlorella and sea veggies do not contain B12 and contain analogs instead.
    I cannot find such information on the internet.
    If you are giving out this information, you should let people know the research that is behind it, otherwise it is indeed “misinformation” until one can prove it.

    Thanks for the show!

  94. Kevin Gianni Kevin Gianni says:

    Hey Terry, here’s a start…

    http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/levels

    There is plenty of information about this around.

    In terms of whether it’s mis-information or not, I’m going to go out on a limb and say much of everything we hear is mis-information… based on the very fact that humans THINK we understand the body. 🙂

    Kev

  95. LizzieGoGirl says:

    To answer your question … whether studies done with mice are valid or not is of no interest to me. I would like to see experiments on animals – except volunteer humans – ended. That said, I wouldn’t even give too much credence to human studies … as all humans are very different.

    It’s great that folks share their experiences, but when it becomes how others are ‘on the wrong track’ … I’m not interested.

    I have had to learn to listen to my body – and trust test results done on me – when choosing what to eat. I have had tremendous problems will all types of diets … macro; vegetarian; vegan; raw; carnivore. The only diet I haven’t tried is the S.A.D. … with all the trans fats and junk food. Hey! Maybe I should!! LOL Like Susan, fruit is WAY too much sugar for me … I lost a tremendous amount of muscle as raw vegan (and my muscle recovery was shot!) … and my body went into starvation mode. AND I developed allergies to Salicylates (found in many raw vegs). My mind and heart do not want to consume animal flesh – or have any cooked food – but small portions of fish or poultry have made a tremendous difference … and I simply have to steam my kale and broccoli. So my body wins out.

    Last word. Susan, I would suggest you discontinue your remarks about vegans being whacked out. That is not a grounded statement, and not particularly kind either.

    Thanks for the show Kevin!

  96. Ken says:

    Dr. Mercola has an article about this subject just passing on the info. Sounds interesting.

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/09/08/china-study.aspx

  97. Tamara says:

    What I’m wondering is, these people that are advocating for eating meat, were they eating superfoods such as maca, goji berries, hempseeds, etc? These are all very high in protein and other nutrients. Hemp has a great ratio of Omega-3 to Omega-6 and so it is a brain food.

  98. Susie says:

    Every one is at a different place in their food journey. The interesting thing about Susan is that she is actually relatively “young” in her journey. Because she is writing books, her journey is public and so it may seem like she’s flaky. I respect that she is listening to her body and 10 years from now if she continues to evolve in her journey she may be saying something different.
    It was interesting to read some of these comments. To those of you who had intense reactions, I challenge you to go inward and ask why? Why did what Susan said cause you to react? Listen to yourself instead of the “experts”. Be your own expert of your body and you will have no need to be reactive.

  99. Sheilah says:

    I’m 60 yrs. young and feel great. I’ve been a vegan for 25 years…however I had painful shoulder connective tissue problems and could barely lift my arms 7 yrs. ago. Fish oil made a HUGE difference and the pain is gone completely! I never thought I would consume fish or fish oil but now I have fish oil every day and fish a few times/month…The problem I have with teachers of experimental diets is that it is all EXPERIMENTAL! In a few generations all of us guinea pigs will be history for future people to study so they can get it right! HA! Blessings to all of us!!!

  100. Alkalize says:

    There is nothing wrong with the studies. But her conclusions lack some depth. We do need more brain food but there is no reason to kill in order to get.

    If people are sick they might not be able to process healthy oils such as flax oil. So they might need some fish and fish oils initially.

    Once you get your health in order, healthy vegan oils (flax, hemp, coconut, pumpkin, pomegranate, borage, olive) of highest quality are perfect.

    People do not get enough EFA’s then complain about vegan diet. Just ramp up the oil consumption (the vegan kind) 🙂

  101. caron says:

    not remembering the names of the books was the first thing that shot her theory to me…that jumped right out at me and you had the names right there for her without hesitation…
    I respectfully have to disagree with her conclusions

  102. chai says:

    read Becoming Vegan and Becoming Raw, written by Brenda Davis (RD). I think she has done the research on how to best become vegan or raw. I trust her knowledge & she says you can do it!

  103. Az says:

    Well done everyone for all your comments and congrats to you Kev and AM on providing a great resource!

    One thing that gets me about listening to your body is that whilst still being addicted to lots of junk food that’s exactly what I feel like my body wants – even though I feel great when I am eating raw fresh stuff!

    Az
    Australia

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